The Russians have gone in

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The Chamberlain analysis only works if there was a written agreement to hand over the Donbas. Hitler got nothing in the way of sanctions, nor did anyone continue to arm, advise, and share intel with the Czechs.

Trying to equate the lead up to the current situation with Chamberlain is a futile exercise. Back then there was no satellite intel, and precious little clandestine photo recce because most gentlemen respected another gentleman's borders. ( what a concept) Besides, the Brits finally released most of their secret files from that period after 60+ years, and the information therein blurs the lines as to whether Chamberlain was an appeaser or bought time for Britain to rearm. As is often the case, the truth probably lies in between, or even a little off to the side.
 
Your observation as to our government’s behavior is quite correct.

However, every action has a context. And the context determines whether one finds that action justified or not. All the actions you’ve listed have been the subject of vigorous debate in the country, always afterwards, sometimes as in the case of Iraq even beforehand. And especially during the Cold War, we did engage in some interventions that were as perfidious as what Putin is trying today, like Iran and Guatemala in the 1950s.

But those operations had their specific historic context. This is now, and it is certainly not hypocritical to judge Putin’s actions against his justifications and international law.

It’s pretty obvious who the bad guy is. I certainly do not feel restrained from rooting for the victim rather than the perpetrator by some misapplied moral relativism.
I call it like I see it.

I'm under no illusions. Nine times out of ten, the aggressor is the bad guy, just like now. I feel for the Ukrainian people.

Invading, killing folks while overthrowing a government for political advantage is wrong - no matter who is doing it.
 
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I see Putin as an advanced chess player. Taking Crimea was just a move. Encircling most of Ukraine, another move. Testing the world is a move. It is more his objective: to see what with and how the world responds.

I see China as a threat to much more than most see them as. I'm thankful their leader has not lost control.

Putin is using his tanks after seeing what the A10s do to tanks. He has defense systems to shoot down most aircraft, except maybe low-flying ones that turn on a whiz. The A10 is a super tank killer.

What percentile of Putin's military strength is he using? Anyone? How would he feel about being attacked from the North? Straight to Moscow?

Only a devil would start a nuclear war, as there would be much fire and dust. Much radiation.

I would sit in the seat to end this if they would only allow it. Putin's aggression, unanswered by force, will be a world problem much sooner than we think. Ukraine is a move.

American lives have to live with themselves, too. We put Noriega in prison. We stopped the missile crisis. America can either help now or wait until he is stronger and deal with him. American lives will be lost sooner or later. It will be an endgame move.

I would hate to see America attacked with nobody that would help us. We should never show our hand, but parts of it like Putin is doing. We are not learning anything from this but about our integrity around the world.

There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. He waited to do this for 30 years. Time is up. He waited too long. Germany needs to step up and help the world, too. Kuwait was miserable, but this requires men with nerves of steel. Allow Putin to continue, and it will be like getting the taste of blood in their mouths.

Yes, money is tight now. If we think it is tight now, just wait until later.

It is time to make physical moves now. Yes, politics needs to be left out of it.
 
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Sadly what should be a discussion of real world current events, this tread has become a ticking time bomb waiting to be locked. My prayers and support to all who defend their freedom. Huge respect to the president of Ukrainian. A true patriot and brave man. Goodnight .
 

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Previously wished for something similar to the failed Operation Valkyrie in WWII Germany. Putin has misjudged this and could very well be taken out by some internal faction who sees the handwriting on the wall.The Germans overextended in Russia without having the necessary supply chain to back them up and now Putin makes the same mistake.
 
To repeat myself, I still wonder
how rock solid the Russian
army is and whether its morale
is any good.

I'm wondering, also, if in finally
meeting/confronting the Ukraines,
including many civilians,
a lot of doubt has been sown
among Russian forces, that doubt
mainly being, "What the heck are
we doing here? These people
certainly don't see us as liberators
or saviours."

Totally wishful thinking on my part,
but just maybe the Russian
military will turn on Putin by at
least tempering his ambitions.
(Trouble is, from a photo I saw of
Putin with some generals, all those
dudes look like nasty Soviet era
curmudgeons.)
 
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A follow up on my comments
about the Russian army:

In looking over many photos
with Putin and soldiers, everything
is very solemn and formal, no smiles,
no spontaneity. In comparison it
seems that no matter which president
of the U.S. visits troops, there always
seems to be lots of smiles and
handshakes and selfies.


Once was asked how to tell the good
guys from the bad guys. Answer,
the bad guy's soldiers must
goosestep while the good guy's
soldiers can march like normal
human beings.
 
Across Russia, thousands of Russians were in the streets today protesting against the war. Hundreds were arrested.*

To protest in Russia is a crime.

Those with the courage to do so are surely only the brave minority of those who are unhappy with this needless war.

*Edited to add: Over 1700 per reports from the next day, 2/25.


Can I say this? Putin better hope he has good bodyguards. Someone may have an alternate idea on how to end this war.
 
Another idea; Ukraine is handing out guns and ammunition to civilians. How are they going to get those guns back? Kindly ask everyone to please return them? I don't think that's gonna happen. A peaceful civilian during the day is an armed terrorist at night.
 
I wonder if Ukraine had kept its nuclear capabilities how things might have gone.

Maybe no invasion?

Maybe something much worse than what we are seeing now?

I am not well read on this but wonder if Ukraine could have had a better outcome than what they are going through now.
 
I wonder if Ukraine had kept its nuclear capabilities how things might have gone.

Maybe no invasion?

Maybe something much worse than what we are seeing now?

I am not well read on this but wonder if Ukraine could have had a better outcome than what they are going through now.

In this thread, several explanations
of why Ukraine lost its nuclear
weaponry is explained. Most
informative.
 
Long-term consequences...

Mods, thanks for re-opening our discussion...much appreciated.

Friends, listening to the news today, I'm thinking about the long-term and far-reaching consequences of Putin's invasion of Ukraine...

* Whether Russia succeeds in conquering Ukraine or not, both Putin and his country are about to become pariahs on the world stage, the skunk at the wedding, so to speak. Nothing Putin says about anything will be deemed credible or trustworthy. No written agreement, no treaty, with Russia will mean anything. For a long, long time to come, the world will view Russia with extreme askance.

* The economic, social, and cultural consequences for Russia, its leaders, and its people, will be severe. I expect Russians will be barred from international sporting events, and that major matches and events will not be held in that country. The Russian Grand Prix race has already been cancelled, as has the Champions League soccer final. Cooperation between Russia and other nations on scientific endeavors or explorations, such as the International Space Station, will be impaired or halted. Russia will be shut out of international financial markets and operations. (I read this morning that even one major porn site has barred Russians from accessing it!) I expect Putin himself, to be persona non grata in many other countries, despite his rank as a head of state.

*The domestic consequences of this war for Putin could be severe. Although he controls the media, he cannot control the anger of his people when their conscripted sons come home from Ukraine in body bags. There have been vocal demonstrations already in Moscow, and with most of his army engaged in this war right now, Putin is possibly vulnerable to a coup d'etat or even a revolution.

* If Putin conquers Ukraine, it will remove that country as a buffer between Russia and NATO members Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania. Basically, a new Iron Curtain will be established, forcing NATO to arm itself and sleep with one eye open at all times. We'll be back to life in the Cold War era.

* The USA is already sending troops, weapons, and aircraft to Europe. I expect that we, and the other NATO member nations, will be forced to re-open those bases we closed 30 years ago, or establish new ones, to guard against Russia. Europeans too young to remember the Cold War (basically anyone under 35) are going to get a cold dose of reality, and a lesson in how vulnerable they are.

* This whole outrageous episode will revitalize the anti-nuke movement around the world. Putin's not-so-veiled threat to use nuclear weapons against those who resist him is truly chilling, a real wake-up call of the dangers of nuclear proliferation.

* Around the world, government officials and others who've praised Putin, or downplayed his intentions, excused his thuggery, or allowed themselves to be used by him (his Belorussian stooge Lukashenko comes to mind) are going to have to find a way to distance themselves from him, lest they join him as outcasts on the world stage.

* The basic concept of the United Nations is being tested here, and we don't yet know how that will play out. Putin is basically flipping the bird to the rest of the civilized world, and daring the UN to do something about him.

What's that ancient curse? "May you live in interesting times..."
 
Saw earlier today that the Belgians are sending in 2000 MGs (FN I am sure) plus fuel. And the Germans are going to send 500 stingers and 1000 anti-tank weapons. Exactly how does all that stuff get to the Ukranians?
 
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Beemerguy,

As much as I like your posting, I
fear there exists already in the
world leaders and countries who'll
say, "Well, Putin hasn't dumped in
my yard. We can work with Putin."

A strong club exist consisting
of like minded dictators who only
see the world's people as those
who must be subjugated.
 
Saw earlier today that the Belgians are sending in 2000 MGs (FN I am sure) plus fuel. And the Germans are going to send 500 stingers and 1000 anti-tank weapons. Exactly how does all that stuff get to the Ukranians?

Very good question. Rail or air? Hope this doesn't go pear shape.
 
Saw earlier today that the Belgians are sending in 2000 MGs (FN I am sure) plus fuel. And the Germans are going to send 500 stingers and 1000 anti-tank weapons. Exactly how does all that stuff get to the Ukranians?

Through Poland's border with Ukraine, I suspect...
 
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