The Slippery Slope...

[Kadonny]

If there's a need for a magnifier inside of 100 yards, and I hope folks will tell me if that's the case, I'll be cancelling the order.

No need, trust me I have aging eyes too. I can shoot my 1X red dot out to 200 pretty easily to ring steel. I can't group at that distance, but that's not what a red dot is for. You'll be fine with it.

Regarding the magnifier, I opted for a 2.5X Primary Arms optic on my .300blk sd gun instead of a magnifier. Great optic. Not too much magnification that you can't sweep inside a house etc with both eyes, but yet enough magnification to group shots at 200 and ring steel well past 400. Nice in-between optic.

But again, each person is different and optics really are sort of trial and error to see what you like best....problem is if you are buying the optics on trial and error, it gets real expensive.

 

[SeniorChief5352]

Uhoh. Feel the itch ? Careful. You'll be needing another rifle to hang a piece on....

This man speaks the truth...

I'm on the fence right now. I've been staring at a new Larue 20" PredatOBR 7.62... I have a new bipod that's missing a rifle.

 

[Rastoff]

My MOE MID's has no creep or slop from what I can tell,...

You might not notice it now, but if you get a quality trigger, you'll immediately notice how much creep the stock trigger has in comparison. It's a lot.

Thanks, Max. I don't have the intestinal fortitude required to start taking apart and messing with the internals.

Hogwash! You're more than capable of stripping the fire control group out. It's only two pins and partially removing the selector. It's easier than just about any other gun on the market. I think every AR owner should take it apart at least once just to see how easy it really is.

If there's a need for a magnifier inside of 100 yards, and I hope folks will tell me if that's the case, I'll be cancelling the order.

It all depends on your eyes and what you'll be doing with the gun.

I turned 50 yesterday. My eyes are such that at 100 yards, I want a little magnification. Can I hit a man sized target at 100 with a red dot? Yes. Can I ensure a hit quickly at 100 yards with a red dot? No. Change that to 50 yards and I'm fine with just a red dot, but the 4x on my scope makes shooting at 100 and longer a joy rather than a chore.

If I only rarely took shots at 100 and more, the red dot would be the ticket. However, I live here:

Magnification is necessary for me and my eyes. Right now my 1-4x24 is perfect for the .223 round. I may switch to an ACOG one day, but I'm positive I'll be using magnification from now on. I would not have done as well as I did in the recent class without it.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Nice rifle Phil (I kept mine all black and stuck with the BUIS). But I'm a bit partial to my DD's. One thing about having sooo many kids, none dress alike, so it's hard to like just one when they are all special in their own ways.

Adding a Bipod (like in your photo), is "almost" a must.

That wasn't my gun. Just plucked the pic off the Net for an example of the PRO with magnifier.

Here's my rifle.

 

[blues7]

Different Environs

Happy belated birthday, Doug! (Whippersnapper!)

Very different terrain we live in...here's a few views off my back deck taken after reading your post:

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Would you otherwise estimate the view and function obtained with the PRO to reasonably approximate that of your Micro?

Good question. As with everything else there's pluses, minuses, personal preference and opinion.

The PRO with the larger tube is easier to use with irons. My Micro glass is so small that it all but requires lower 1/3rd co-witness, and there ain't much there. With the PRO mount I think it's near absolute co-witness which I'd guess will be good for you since you are good with irons. I rarely use irons... BUIS literally, so that's really not an issue for me.

Some guys say that they like using the larger tube because it widens their view of the target area. Kinda like giving them a threat zone to work with. With the smaller micro, I find that the housing pretty much disappears with both eyes open and I've just got a red dot floating down field. I like that best.

The micro is of course smaller and lighter, and that compliments a light battle rifle. That said, the weight difference isn't all that much. Your 14.5 barrel probably more than makes up for that compared to a 16. But then your TS handgaurd is heavier than a plastic Sport handguard.. and and and... whatever.

Now here comes something a bit more controversial... dot size. The PRO is 2MOA. The Micro is available with 2MOA and 4MOA dot size (actually it's closer to 3.5MOA from what I've read). My micro is 2MOA. If I bought another one it would be 4MOA. The 4MOA is easier/faster for me to pick up. I know this because I have red dots of various sizes. I can always crank up the power on the 2MOA and flare out the dot size but I'd prefer the 4MOA. Some guys want the 2MOA for more precise aiming. I think that's generally contrary to the purpose of a red dot.

The micro is rated for 5 years battery life. Pro 3 years. So they can both be left on at the ready 24/7/365.

So ya know... can't go wrong with either as long as it's well suited for what you want.

 

[blues7]

Thanks, Phil for the comparison.

I've got some thinkin' to do.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I live in 1x red dot country too.

 

[Rastoff]

I too have updated my thinking on dot size.

I used to want the smallest dot possible for precision. However, the larger dot really is faster to acquire. That doesn't mean you can't be precise with it.

This is one reason I liked the EOTech circle and dot reticle. Still have fast acquisition with the circle and really fine precision with the dot. Alas, L3 has not taken care of their problems like they should.

My Vortex PST has a 1MOA (actually .3mil) dot with a 5mil circle. This allows really fast acquisition and very precise aiming. This proved itself by helping me beat everyone in my recent class in a speed drill using targets at 25, 35 and 50 yards. The down side is it's heavier.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Kadonny]

I live in 1x red dot country too.

Beautiful pic, hope the deer made it out of your yard safely

 

[blues7]

Thanks guys...you've given me a great deal of food for thought and some excellent advice (mixed with good humor).

As a result, I'm going back to the drawing board and going to spend time putting more rounds down range before revisiting the need to "upgrade" or "enhance" the rifle.

I've cancelled my order for the Aimpoint PRO. You enablers are just going to have to work a little harder.

I do hope that we can keep this thread going, however.
It has the feel of a bunch of friends sharing thoughts and laughs over a few cold ones.

(On a positive note, I do have some ammo being delivered today from PSA. So all is not lost. )

 

[snm8510]

I too have updated my thinking on dot size.

I used to want the smallest dot possible for precision. However, the larger dot really is faster to acquire. That doesn't mean you can't be precise with it.

This is one reason I liked the EOTech circle and dot reticle. Still have fast acquisition with the circle and really fine precision with the dot. Alas, L3 has not taken care of their problems like they should.

My astigmatism made the EOTech a living nightmare for me.. Very blurry and my eyes would always try to fix the image (and ultimately fail) so when EOTech announced they'd refund the sights, I was all over that to replace it with an Aimpoint..

And I've always heard magnifiers usually end up in the parts box.. I've toyed with the idea of a 1-4, but for now I'll stick with my PRO

 

[Kadonny]

As @snm8510 said, a 1x4 is also a great choice. So many optics, so little time.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Beautiful pic, hope the deer made it out of your yard safely

Thanks.

Deer are quite safe on my property. Squirrels robbing the bird feeder may not be so lucky...

Back on topic... has blues7 considered a Trijicon?

 

[blues7]

I took the bird feeders down after having black bear up there a half dozen times. They never made a mess but for one time they spilled the seed all over. Usually I just chased 'em off. The squirrels were a major pain as well but I usually pissed 'em off with an old bb gun that didn't have enough power to break the skin.

 

[Rastoff]

Back on topic... has blues7 considered a Trijicon?

A Trijicon what?

This one is on my short list:

However, the price tag is keeping me at bay.

This is the TA33. It has the most generous eye relief of the small, fixed optics from Trijicon. The 3x power is enough to be real help at 100 yards, but not so much as to be bothersome at 15 yards. It's 7.7oz weight is about half what my 1-4x24 weighs. It's a marvelous optic, but pricey.

I don't like the dual illumination RMRs from Trijicon though. If you're standing in shadow, and the target is lit, the dot doesn't show bright enough. Every other lighting condition is great. Bright light, low light or even no light, they are great.

 

[blues7]

Blues has not. The only Trijicon products that Blues has ever looked at were night sights for Glocks...which he didn't purchase. (I still use an old school handheld Surefire 6z with my handguns.)

In fact, all three of my handguns are OEM and unmodified except for mandatory trigger and spring swap outs on the Glocks. My shotgun is OEM but for a Surefire DSF-870 forend weaponlight and a Blackhawk sling.

Hmmm, maybe the slope's not as slippery as I thought. I've got some serious catching up to do!

 

[tcon]

I have two AR's that I shoot. The one that I consider my go-to is a pencil-barrel A2 style with integral handle rear sight. I'm 55 but my LASIK surgery I had 13 years ago still has me at better than 20/20 at distance. I'm in love with the AR iron sights with the rear elevation drum. It's hard to accept that I'm the the only one that loves the system but it seems like I'm usually in this very small minority. On this A2 90's rifle, I have a Trijicon front sight post and a Trijicon rear flip aperture with dual dot inserts on the large ring.

I've modified the rear elevation drum to allow the drum to go two clicks below the 8/3 mark (a quick, reversible mod). This allows for a 200m (also 50yd) zero which is popular because of its acceptably flat trajectory out to 250m. For 300m, turn the drum two clicks up to 3/8 and the rest of the drum markings are theoretically ranged for those distances. This modification is called the Improved Battlesight Zero (IBZ) and was made popular by Lt. Colonel Chuck Santose and the procedure is documented in several places on the web.

I like that rifle because it's light, repeatably accurate, tough, simple and I'm very comfortable and fast with both sizes of apertures.

The other one I shoot is a 2013 and it has a TA31F ACOG (red chevron with M193/M855 bullet-drop compensator). I love it for its crystal clear 4X, easy to read reticle and also for the Bindon Aiming feature which after training, allows two-eye instant close-target acquisition.

I agree with you that it's best to wait, get acquainted with the iron sights and read as much about the sighting options as you can instead of heaving $ at it.

If you do decide to look into getting a A3 carry handle, PM me and I can tell you what to look for to make sure you get a good military-contract model meant for "F" front sight bases vs the commercial version which might be of lesser quality and may not work as well with the "F" base without a taller front sight post insert.

 

[blues7]

I agree with you that it's best to wait, get acquainted with the iron sights and read as much about the sighting options as you can instead of heaving $ at it.

If you do decide to look into getting a A3 carry handle, PM me and I can tell you what to look for to make sure you get a good military-contract model meant for "F" front sight bases vs the commercial version which might be of lesser quality and may not work as well with the "F" base without a taller front sight post insert.

Appreciate the feedback.

I don't think I'll be adding a carry handle since the TS was set up with the polymer MBUS. I thought about adding iron sights that were actually metal but I'm not certain that they would perform any better. Feel free to set me straight on whether it's worthwhile and which you would recommend.

It's funny, but even when I was on SRT back in the 80's and 90's the only scope I ever used was on my issued Steyr AUG. (Never had any form of optics on shotguns, MP-5s or other issued firearms back then.)

 

[Rastoff]

The rear back up sight they had on the M4 I used in training was a Matech:

It was used in conjunction with an Aimpoint Comp M4. We zeroed it at 300 yards. Then with the switch set to 200, you're good for everything 200 yards and closer.

I have one on my rifle. However, I'm going to take it off. With my eyes, the rear aperture is so fuzzy, it's almost invisible. This doesn't make for a quality sight picture.