The Slippery Slope...

[blues7]

Here's a link to the trigger review I mentioned above.



On another note...the only person besides you, Doug, that appears to really be trying to save me any money is my new hero, Kenan Flasowski:

A carbine is great for home defense as long as it is reliable so I do recommend them. The first thing anybody should hang on their gun is a light. You can't hit what you can't see, and civilians definitely should never engage a human target unless you can positively identify it as a threat. You cannot do that at night without a light. Plus the benefit of blinding them with 120 lumens of strobing disorientation will give you a distinct advantage.

Next would be a good lightweight two-point sling, then a red dot reflex sight. I see guns with a lot of extra weight (forward pistol grip, incredibly adjustable stocks, four pound slings, etc) added to them for not a lot of benefit.

 

[Rastoff]

Interesting read. I haven't read it all, but I'm not surprised by what he found.

I will say this, in a combat type situation, I don't think these triggers are a great improvement. If you're trying for maximum accuracy, they make a big difference, but not when firing controlled pairs under time pressure.

I have both a POF and the aforementioned Velocity. Both feel almost exactly the same to me and each cost $150. I like the installation method for the Velocity better. Is the Wilson better? Probably, but the only people who will be able to tell are those who are much better shooters than I.

In the end it will all depend on what you want. The 15 minute trigger job served me well until I saved up a few bucks and got the Velocity. Does this trigger make me a better shooter? I don't think so, but it is really nice to shoot.

 

[blues7]

Interesting read. I haven't read it all, but I'm not surprised by what he found.

I will say this, in a combat type situation, I don't think these triggers are a great improvement. If you're trying for maximum accuracy, they make a big difference, but not when firing controlled pairs under time pressure.

Bingo. That's my primary concern, Doug. Recreational shooting, a bit of practicing and brushing up my former tactical skills and maintaining a firearm which will stand ready should it ever be called upon to do duty as a battle rifle.

 

[Rastoff]

Then don't touch your trigger. It will be fine as delivered from the factory. You will get much more benefit by spending that money on ammo.

 

[SeniorChief5352]

Good to hear about the Aimpoint...

...But wait a minute, Babalooey! Am I going to need a trigger now? Hmmm, I can't afford to let Chief get too far ahead with his TS. Then again, he won't want a Command Sergeant Major to get a leg up on him...and so it goes.

You can't go wrong with Aimpoint. Even a CSM can use one correctly 9 times out of 10...

Do yourself a favor, pick up a trigger... It's the best investment I've made to date.

 

[blues7]

Do yourself a favor, pick up a trigger... It's the best investment I've made to date.

 

[Dennis]

I never wanted to have to clean another m16 for the rest of my life after qualifing with them in the Corps after 20 years. That was in 91 when i retired. About 3 or four years ago, i figured oh what the hell... Built a nice LR type '15, then a mid-range, then a short range cqb-type, then got a 458 socom upper and built another lower. Lately another '15... GP use.
ALG triggers are great triggers for general use and not too expensive. Returned my eotechs and put a PRO on my cqb-type and a nice 1-4 loopy on my 458.
IT WILL SUCK YOU IN! LOL

 

[rwsmith]

Guns are like babies......

They are easy to get, but it's the care and feeding that is the tough part.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

SeniorChief5352 is right on target. There is no better investment.

Unlike a set of Ping golf clubs that won't improve a duffer's golf shots, a quality trigger will improve the shooting of even those who don't practice much. From bench shooting to duty, the right trigger for the job makes a significant difference.

Choose wisely. When you see those lesser priced fancy colored anodized triggers keep in mind the article in MilitaryTimes. It isn't just about how the trigger feels out of the box -- we've had other upper-end triggers turn to junk with really low round counts. -- All precision triggers are not created equal, and some shouldn't be created at all.

Safety, performance and durability...

Simplicity is also a consideration. Set screws... adjustable pull... No thanks. Notice the notes in your link about safety concerns with Velocity which is more about the lack of simplicity of install design and the end user than a safety design flaw. All considerations...

 

[blues7]

All good points, Phil, and if I were to change the trigger out (myself) I would opt for the most foolproof and robust design.

Scrimping on a part so critical to the rifle's reliability would be foolish at best.

No, if I decide to venture down this road, (after some more shooting and testing with the TS with the OEM trigger), it will be one sans adjustments. That pretty much means the Wilson Combat.

 

[snm8510]

Anybody have any experience with the SRC Reliabolt? Been eyeballing it (bolt only, not entire bcg), but haven't pulled the trigger yet..

I feel this thread is just here to see how many goodies we can make each other buy for their AR without their wives knowing..

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Anybody have any experience with the SRC Reliabolt? Been eyeballing it, but haven't pulled the trigger yet..

I feel this thread is just here to see how many goodies we can make each other buy for their AR without their wives knowing..

That would be the perfect addition to any rifle. I think I'll buy three!

Seriously... that looks like a solution in search of a problem. Maybe JaPes will come along and share his opinion. I know he's had some experience with whiz-bang BCGs.

 

[Kadonny]

Yep I was done 3 AR's ago.

This.

@blues7 I will laugh because I was in the exact same spot a few years ago that you are at right now. I was done upgrading and putting parts on my Sport, it was perfect, I'm all set!

Then one day I thought....hmmm.....I really want a Colt, you know just to have one. What happened then? I found one on sale with a price I could not refuse. So it starts again, of course I had to add parts to that one too. But finally, it was perfect, outfitted just the way I wanted.

Then I got thinking, boy, I'd love to have a .300blk rifle, you know to maybe buy a supressor one day. But the cool thing is I only need an upper since they use they use the same .223 lower. Guess what, I bought the .300blk upper, got a great price too . Then I got thinking, I really need a lower for that upper, I mean it just looks lost without a lower. Then I thought, hey, this would be the perfect time to try building my own lower. Guess what, I built my first lower. I was all set, really I was! This time I really mean it.

Then Primary Arms had the stones to send me an email ad where all their Noveske uppers were on sale, how dare they! Guess what......yup got my Noveske upper in on Friday. Well now I'm halfway to a real Noveske, guess I'll have to build a Noveske lower to put that uppon on top of.

Anyway, short story long. You are never done, and you'll never own just one AR. Accept your fate now, it will be easier. Oh, and as others have said, just wait until that suppressor bug bites you too, that's when it gets expesive!

 

[Maddmax]

blues7. Looks like you took the bait hook, line and sinker. There's no known antidote for Black Rifle Fever or any actual cure. Once actual eye contact has been made it's already too late, touching is fatal. The low end models (cost not quality), make it a reasonable entry price to draw you in closer. You do your homework and discover Forums on the internet and find people enjoying the sport and in the know willing to lend a hand to "new comers". You can run, but you can't hide. Accessories are like taking an aspirin for a migraine. I thought maybe the M&P handguns would help, NOT even close. Same goes for the 7.62X51 Black Rifles. It's an itch that's hard to scratch. Welcome to the club.

Just remember the basics. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple ......, more parts can mean more things to go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not All That Glitters is Gold, there is a LOT of knock-off junk out there.

 

[Kadonny]

Oh, and someone talk me out of this pencil barrel fetish I have right now too.......

 

[blues7]

blues7. Looks like you took the bait hook, line and sinker. ...snip...Just remember the basics. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple ......, more parts can mean more things to go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not All That Glitters is Gold, there is a LOT of knock-off junk out there.

Actually, I haven't really gone too far overboard yet.

As far as the rifle itself is concerned I've only added the MS4 sling (and QD hardware), Streamlight TLR-1 HL and ordered the Aimpoint PRO. These are pretty much pieces of equipment that I would consider requisite for a home defense rifle.

I did consider the optic to be somewhat of an option due to the MBUS being adequate for the ranges I intend to employ the rifle.

(I have a light and tactical sling on my Remington 870 but no optic and feel very comfortable with it for home and property defense.)

Phil had already convinced me to replace the buffer spring with a chrome silicon version. ($6 from Damage Industries.)

Waffling a bit on purchasing the trigger for a couple of reasons. Cost is, of course, one of them. The other is that 60 rounds down range is not enough to evaluate the rifle, especially after nearly flinching waiting for the dreaded failure to fire after getting the rifle back from S&W warranty repair. When I could finally relax I didn't notice anything at that juncture which made me feel that the trigger was lacking. (I did jerk a few and knew it immediately...but that was the exception and it was my fault.)

So, I'm guessing Wilson Combat will still have 'em when I'm ready.

Really, since getting the rifle I've spent most of my time and money on buying training and "duty" ammo plus a variety of tools and products for cleaning and maintenance. Maybe more than I needed for a bare bones G.I. type setup but nothing extraordinary. 30" Dewey rod and chamber kit, Otis MSR field kit, patches / swabs, a boresnake and lubes which have proven tried and true for many years.

Oh yeah, a $30 MTM Portable Rifle/Shotgun Maintenance Center so I don't have to sit on the floor with the rifle in my lap all the time.

I think that shows a reasonable amount of restraint so far. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Actually, I haven't really gone too far overboard yet.

As far as the rifle itself is concerned I've only added the MS4 sling (and QD hardware), Streamlight TLR-1 HL and ordered the Aimpoint PRO. These are pretty much pieces of equipment that I would consider requisite for a home defense rifle.

Well... you purchased the TS which gave you a slipperly slope head start on the Sport guys.

Freefloat 13" Troy® TRX Extreme Handguard.
Vortex Flash-Hider
Front and rear MBUS
Magpul stock
Magpul grip

See... you were already slipping and sliding before even getting your hands on the rifle.

 

[blues7]

Well... you purchased the TS which gave you a slipperly slope head start on the Sport guys.

Freefloat 13" Troy® TRX Extreme Handguard.
Vortex Flash-Hider
Front and rear MBUS
Magpul stock
Magpul grip

See... you were already slipping and sliding before even getting your hands on the rifle.

Oh yeah...there's that.

But at least the LE discount brought the somewhat astronomical retail price of $1569 down to a more reasonable $1100. So I got that going for me.

(It's like getting the Aimpoint PRO for free! Yeah, that's the ticket! )

 

[snm8510]

I see y'all keep mentioning replacing the trigger.. I've never messed with an upgraded trigger so I'm in the dark about these.. Honestly, from other rifles I've shot, the AR has quite a pleasant stock pull compared to most.. My MOE MID's has no creep or slop from what I can tell, so what is all the hype about like the Wilson Combat trigger?? Not doing three gun or any race type stuff and use my rifle for plinking, hd/sd, and coyote/varmaint hunting so is it really that justifiable??

 

[blues7]

I see y'all keep mentioning replacing the trigger.. I've never messed with an upgraded trigger so I'm in the dark about these.. Honestly, from other rifles I've shot, the AR has quite a pleasant stock pull compared to most.. My MOE MID's has no creep or slop from what I can tell, so what is all the hype about like the Wilson Combat trigger?? Not doing three gun or any race type stuff and use my rifle for plinking, hd/sd, and coyote/varmaint hunting so is it really that justifiable??

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Whether it be a Geissele or Wilson or another... the bottom line is it will help you be a more consistent, accurate as well as faster shooter. The differences between triggers and what they improve upon over a GI trigger are pretty well detailed in the link blues7 posted earlier.

 

[Maddmax]

Actually, I haven't really gone too far overboard yet.
I think that shows a reasonable amount of restraint so far. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

Sounds like you are doing just fine and on the right track.

I still like fine tuning the "small" things the factory doesn't have time to waist on (trying to keep cost down on "upper end" entry level weapons), then breaking them in, seeing what they are actually capable of bare bones before I get too carried away switching or adding stuff.

Amazing what a little bit of fine polishing grit can do to a trigger smoothing it up and how a few hundred rounds and taking the extra time breaking in a barrel works on almost any brand name.

 

[Maddmax]

Well... you purchased the TS which gave you a slipperly slope head start on the Sport guys.

Freefloat 13" Troy® TRX Extreme Handguard.
Vortex Flash-Hider
Front and rear MBUS
Magpul stock
Magpul grip

See... you were already slipping and sliding before even getting your hands on the rifle.

Ha ha. BUSTED !

 

[Maddmax]

But at least the LE discount brought the somewhat astronomical retail price of $1569 down to a more reasonable $1100. So I got that going for me.

(It's like getting the Aimpoint PRO for free! Yeah, that's the ticket! )

Tricky, good recovery. Now you're thinking in the right direction.

 

[blues7]

Sounds like you are doing just fine and on the right track.

I still like fine tuning the "small" things the factory doesn't have time to waist on (trying to keep cost down on "upper end" entry level weapons), then breaking them in, seeing what they are actually capable of bare bones before I get too carried away switching or adding stuff.

Amazing what a little bit of fine polishing grit can do to a trigger smoothing it up and how a few hundred rounds and taking the extra time breaking in a barrel works on almost any brand name.

Thanks, Max. I don't have the intestinal fortitude required to start taking apart and messing with the internals. (Unless I've had a couple...)

Go through the door after a bad guy? Check.

Take little bitty pieces apart and hopefully get 'em back together properly again?

I think that puts things into perspective.

 

[Maddmax]

Oh, and someone talk me out of this pencil barrel fetish I have right now too.......

Barrel harmonics, better heat dispersion and I like longer rifle length gas systems for better powder burn out the longer barrel.

 

[blues7]

Oh, and someone talk me out of this pencil barrel fetish I have right now too.......

Save your money up and you could get this barrel instead...however, I can't guarantee the accuracy of your shooting afterward.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

But at least the LE discount brought the somewhat astronomical retail price of $1569 down to a more reasonable $1100. So I got that going for me.

(It's like getting the Aimpoint PRO for free! Yeah, that's the ticket! )

That's some of the best rationalizing I've read in a while.

I see many more upgrades in your AR future, maybe even a suppressor.

 

[blues7]

That's some of the best rationalizing I've read in a while.

I see many more upgrades in your AR future, maybe even a suppressor.

For my wallet, hopefully...

You know, I was just thinking...rather than buy parts and then have spares laying around, (which would irk my forum buddy Rod, (crracer_712), no end), I think I should just buy a VTAC II and be done with it. It already has an upgraded trigger and with the money I save with the law enforcement price I could buy another Aimpoint, BUIS, light and a case. It already comes with a sling.

How you like me now?

 

[Woodstock7]

A ‌truism‌ is a claim that is so obvious or self-evident as to be hardly worth mentioning...yes, you speak wisely. BTDT. Need and want.
I say: beware the man with only ONE gun! ...for he knows it like himself.