Two more .380s, two more fails

I had already read it. Duly noted . . .
OK, if you read it, then why these statements?

All I know otherwise is one was male and one was female. The only thing you blame is caliber. That's pretty plain. And useless . . .

Not for me. No idea of the skill level of either shooter . . .
I plainly stated the skill level of both shooters here so, how is it that you don't know? Or are you calling me a liar?

I've stated a few times that my experience with this issue includes examples from both experienced and new shooters. I agree that it's highly likely that some of the issues I've seen could be shooter induced. I just don't think that's the whole story.
 
Most all of the "jams" or "failures" I've seen with pocket autos in general are user induced. Most such pistols are not tolerant of a loose hold or weak wrists. The next thing is dirty guns...especially those that are pocket carried. Many end up as a solid mass of coagulated lube/lint/rust.

The guns most commonly suffering mechanical failures have been previous generations of KelTec autos and Taurus TCP's. I've seen some well worn Ruger LCP's that no longer retain the takedown pin properly/bulges in the frame in that area as well as some Bodyguard 380's with trigger problems...such as broken springs, dead triggers, or failures to release the hammer.

On a couple mentions of lightweight .38's being more trainable...on what planet? Those are probably the toughest guns out there to get the average person to shoot proficiently.

The gun you carry is better than the one left at home, but the number of concealed carriers that are not proficient with their weapon of choice and worse yet, those that aren't even aware if their gun works in it's current state is a bit disconcerting. At any rate, the gun left at home isn't going to do much good if needed elsewhere.
 
This has been an interesting read to say the least. I would buy my wife a S&W EZ in a heartbeat if they came out with a model in 9mm. I don't want to add another caliber to the reloading mix.

Both my wife and I have lots of birthdays behind us and the firearms we used to shoot with no problems hurt today. Her Colt Detective Special has a horrible double action trigger and hurts her hand when she shoots. I would have to guess that is why a lot of folks want a small pistol to carry. (Her purse must weigh 20 lbs)

A lot of folks will approach me wanting advice on a new firearm but never ask about proper training for it. LOTS of firearms are carried to the range without cleaning, dry firing, knowing how they function etc. After the rifle smacks them, the slide on the 9 mm tears their hand up or the revolver hurts their hand they bring them home and give them away or sell them and go through the whole process again.

All the problems we have experienced in recent years with handguns have been operator error or failure to clean, etc, etc. Lots of range time has helped both of us and our daughter also to become safer and more accurate shooters with our Shields.

I think most of the problems discussed here, not all, are shooter error, brought on by lack of range time and proper gun handling training.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
The closest thing to a Shield EZ in 9mm in the Walther CCP. The current Gen2 iteration is even easy to disassemble/assemble.
 
I've been shooting my Sig P238 for several years now.
I'm going to take a SWAG and say 750 to 900 rounds without a malfunction.

I have been shooting 1911s since I was 5 years old, I'm now 77, and have never had a limp wrist problem.
The first time I shot a 1911 was under the supervision of my Ordnance Officer Dad. He impressed on me that I
HAD to give the gun something to recoil against to make it work properly. He was right !

The above has served me well with the P238 as well as my 1911s.
 
Why does anybody think that because a shooter is "experienced", they're beyond reproach?

Protips: Shooting a lot, or for a very long time, doesn't automatically translate to not sucking at it. And the absolute dumbest stuff I've ever seen done has been at the hands of "master" this or "instructor" that shooters. That's all that "experienced" or "skilled" means--you've had time to figure out really interesting ways to fail at shooting.
 
Why does anybody think that because a shooter is "experienced", they're beyond reproach?

Protips: Shooting a lot, or for a very long time, doesn't automatically translate to not sucking at it. And the absolute dumbest stuff I've ever seen done has been at the hands of "master" this or "instructor" that shooters. That's all that "experienced" or "skilled" means--you've had time to figure out really interesting ways to fail at shooting.


To each, his own. :)
 
PPK/S Failure

The only .380 I've ever jammed was a Walther (Interarms) PPK/S. It broke its loaded chamber indicator rod return spring, jamming the rod past the breach face, preventing cartridges from sliding up the face and feeding. Just another doo-dad to go wrong and tie up the gun. A string of LCP's have yet to jam. IMHO a LCP with a Hogue grip or Talon tape is the ultimate pocket automatic.
 
I've seen many firearms malfunction on the range. Some were dirty , some had zero lubrication, some had bad ammunition, some had faulty magazines. My Bodyguard 380 has gone through about 2,000 rounds of different ammo. I had 1 ftf that was corrected with the 2nd strike capablitity. I changed the mag spring s and recoil springs and I keep it clean and lubed.
I think any gun can malfunction
dont blame the 380!
 
Why does anybody think that because a shooter is "experienced", they're beyond reproach?

Protips: Shooting a lot, or for a very long time, doesn't automatically translate to not sucking at it. And the absolute dumbest stuff I've ever seen done has been at the hands of "master" this or "instructor" that shooters. That's all that "experienced" or "skilled" means--you've had time to figure out really interesting ways to fail at shooting.

Complacency!

In reviewing dozens of shooters dragged in front of our club Board of Directors for safety issues (improper handling, unsafe actions, negligent discharge, unauthorized firearm on a particular range) in the past several years, NONE were new shooters, none had less than 7-10 years experience and were cross section of society ("educated" people, "regular" folks, LEOs, vets).

But we are getting off topic - again.
 
Had another class this Saturday and saw another .380Auto. This one was a Sig Sauer P238. It belonged to a couple and they both shot it; 12 rounds each.

The husband is an experienced shooter who is a Captain in the Marines. He had one malfunction. It was a failure to go into battery on the fourth round.

The wife has limited experience. She had three malfunctions. The first was a failure to go into battery on the first round. She racked the slide properly and didn't baby it. The second was a fail-to-fire on some round in the middle of the magazine. Round didn't even have a mark on the primer, but the hammer fell. The third was another failure to go into battery on the first round of a new mag. The fourth was a failure to go into battery on the third round of a mag. When it did feed, the gun failed to fire. Like the first fail to fire, there was no mark on the primer. Both of those rounds fired fine when fed back into the gun.

This all happened in 24 rounds. The ammo was American Eagle.

Good, quality gun that was used by an experienced shooter and one that was relatively new. The gun was clean. The ammo is decent enough. Certainly not premium ammo, but I've never had trouble with it in other calibers.

I'm just reporting what happened.
 
Had another class this Saturday and saw another .380Auto. This one was a Sig Sauer P238. It belonged to a couple and they both shot it; 12 rounds each.

The husband is an experienced shooter who is a Captain in the Marines. He had one malfunction. It was a failure to go into battery on the fourth round.

The wife has limited experience. She had three malfunctions. The first was a failure to go into battery on the first round. She racked the slide properly and didn't baby it. The second was a fail-to-fire on some round in the middle of the magazine. Round didn't even have a mark on the primer, but the hammer fell. The third was another failure to go into battery on the first round of a new mag. The fourth was a failure to go into battery on the third round of a mag. When it did feed, the gun failed to fire. Like the first fail to fire, there was no mark on the primer. Both of those rounds fired fine when fed back into the gun.

This all happened in 24 rounds. The ammo was American Eagle.

Good, quality gun that was used by an experienced shooter and one that was relatively new. The gun was clean. The ammo is decent enough. Certainly not premium ammo, but I've never had trouble with it in other calibers.

I'm just reporting what happened.

What else can you tell us?

"Captain in the Marines" tells me he's youngish and probably has never fired a 1911. You lube a 1911, or its mini versions a lot differently than you do the current crop of polymer framed guns and if you try to run one almost dry like you would a Glock, it will fail.

Ideally you grease the slide rails, frame rails, and spring, and then lightly oil everything else including all the pivot points, the locking lugs and barrel hood.

In addition, the Sig P238, like the Kimber Micro, can be pretty tight when new and may need a couple hundred rounds to break in, so how new was the pistol? People usually don't bring guns to a self defense class if they know they are not reliable, so I suspect it's new

Finally, the mini 1911s feed and function just like the big ones and compatibility between magazine feed lips and bullet point shapes matter. What ammo were they using? and were the failures resulting in a particular magazine or in all of them.

All of the failures you describe appear to be failures to go completely into battery, given the lack of any mark on the primer. Basically, it's in battery far enough for the sear to release the hammer, but the hammer is striking the lower edge of the sliide before it can contact the firing pin as the slide is just a bit too far away from being fully forward. It should not be doing that, and I suspect a QA issues, regardless of being a Sig.

In a 1911 coming up slightly short of being in battery is usually caused by the rim hanging up in the extractor due to an excessively high feed angle, caused by length to ogive issues, and/or the magazine releasing the base of the round late. In more extreme cases it can be the result of the ogive of the round hitting the top of the chamber. It's a bigger issue in amini .380 1911 as the spring pressures are lower. Ironically enough it's less of a problem in a blow back mini 1911 like the Baby Rock as the recoil spring is much stiffer.

In any case, it also reflects a distaste for the particular ammo more than a failing of the pistol.

I would not condemn the Sig P238 based on a single case where the pistol may:

1) be new and/or inadequately lubricated;
2) may not like the ammo being used; and
3) may have a disconnector issue due to less than perfect QA.
 
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The difference in size between pocket .380s and pocket 9mms are so slight that I can't understand why anyone would trust their life to such an inferior cartridge. Next time you think you can only pocket carry a .380, look at the Kahr PM9/CM9 and tell me how you can't make that work.
I carry a PM9 daily. It is too big and heavy for pocket carry if you have to wear dress clothes. I go with my P3aT 380 with dress slacks. Ugly as sin but has never had a glitch in over a thousand rounds.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
I see the debate continues.

All the following have been purchased new, Colt Government .380, Sig Sauer P238 (Equinox) and a S&W Walther PPK (post recall). Don't ever mention the S&W PPK around Walther purist.:eek:

All three work fine, so you may have an idea of what I think.;)

I'd love to see how many .380 owners are present in this forum.

Carry on.
 
personally. I believe this thread is sponsored by the 380 ammo manufacturers. Everyone that owns one has been shooting since this thread started , just to see if they have been mistaken about there accuracy and dependability. Or maybe someone made a bet for who can have the longest thread. {my 238 sig works fine BTW, breezes right by the 35 round mark that California compliant guns can't}
 
Several years ago, and I mean at least ten or more, I vaguely remember one of the gun magazines doing some extensive tests in order to find the most reliable .380 pocket pistol.

Several hundred rounds were fired from each handgun, and only one functioned perfectly without a hiccup, failure to fire, failure to eject, stovepipe, etc.

It was the Rohrbaugh .380. Of course, at that time, the Rohrbaugh was going for eleven hundred bucks. Remington bought them out in 2014 and claims that their RM380 is essentially the same gun as the Rohrbaugh 380.

Now, folks, the key operating word here is "essentially." Like I mentioned previously, the Rohrbaugh was selling for over a thousand dollars whereas the RM380 goes for about three hundred bucks.

I don't know about you, but I'm having a real tough time figuring out how Remington can save $800 and still produce the same gun. I have serious doubts that it's just because Remington had a sudden rush of kind-hearted generosity:).
 
Well, I can testify to this, FWIW. I guess this is what is termed "anecdotal" information. On Thursday last, while I was breaking in my new Sig P365 with about 500 rounds of ammo, my wife was shooting her relatively new .380 caliber semi auto pistol. This was her second outing with it. She fired over 250 rounds through it that afternoon. We took some RWS FMJ range ammo that I had purchased several years ago for a song. NOT what I call especially good ammo (personal opinion from personal experience). We also had two brands of premium ammo (to further prove this ammo in her pistol for carry purposes.) First trip out she had fired over 50 rounds of each of these two brands. This trip involved about 25 rounds of each.

I have purposely not identified by brand the .380 she owns and loves since the OP has not really indicated a lack of faith in any brand but rather the caliber and guns that fire it as a whole. My wife experienced not one single issue during her range session. Every round fired functioned without fail, and so did her choice of pistol She had similar results on her first outing. She did experience a couple of last rounds in a mag popping out of the mag early which resulted in a"stovepipe" condition of a live round. These two events occurred very early in her "test" of the new gun with brand new unused magazines. No more issues the first trip with over 300 rounds fired. First time this girl, who has been to the range with me many times over the years, has ever fired that many rounds at one setting, and both times has mentioned that she could continue firing. She shot all the ammo we brought last Thursday in .380 caliber, so she helped me fired a few mags of 9MM.

If called to verify this information and range report, I can get signed statements from the two range officers who were present during our session. We were there at a quiet time and on more than one occasion, I observed these two guys standing behind her watching her performance with that .380 caliber pistol. What I've said here does not necessarily prove anything, but it is a statement that her .380 caliber pistol will definitely fire more than 35 rounds of ammo without any kind of malfunction or stoppage. I can also flatly state that I do NOT want her shooting at me with that pistol! As I stated, posted FWIW, not to argue about this matter. Just our experience here in West Texas.
 
Many years ago, I bought my first 380 - a Walther PPK/s, used, with a couple of marks in the bluing on the slide. It never failed to fire, was reasonably accurate. Later I picked up a PPK/s in stainless - it never mis-fed or mis-fired, but was not quite as accurate. I remember getting "fliers" way off aim that I'm sure weren't me.

Later I bought a Browning BDA380, came with two mags, I think 13 or 15 rounds. It hit anything I aimed at. Big grip, not really concealable, but a very nice pistol. Much like a miniature Hi-Power. Sadly, had to sell all three during a employment crisis period.

I would trust any older 380. I think they were built better "back then".
 
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.380 ammo is the most inconsistent of the major calibers I have seen.

Different power factor. Some more powerful than others. Extractor rims with differing dimensions.

I went through a .380 kick about 10-12 years back. Bought about every small .380 on the market. Most of them choked hard. I also bought thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of expensive (back then) .380 ammo. Like ALL the brands of ammo, from Serbian, to Italian, to American, to Mexican, etc.

Basically, what I learned was many .380 pocket pistols are not reliable. Some of them were. When you do find a good, reliable, .380 pocket pistol, DON'T sell it or get rid of it. Its a gem. I had a Kel-Tec .380 with over 1000 rounds through it that never jammed. I sold it, unfortunately, and spent literally thousands of dollars in my quest to find my next reliable pocket .380. That gun ended up being one of the first Ruger LCP pistols. It currently has over 2000 trouble free, jam free rounds through it. I will never sell it.

I bought a newer LCP with the better trigger and it was a pile of junk that jammed 10 rounds out of 100. So they are not equal. Some work, some don't.

I am a perfectionist in every sense of the word and a maintenance freak, and I overly maintain every single piece of mechanical equipment I own. I can tell you that an LCP recoil spring would be absolutely shot out at 1000 rounds, let alone 2000 rounds. I change them at 500 rounds. Also, the magazine springs take a huge set, compared to any other magazine spring I have ever seen. A one year old magazine spring is literally an inch shorter than a new spring. I change my magazine springs about every year. I also meticulously lube my guns, and make sure that they are "properly" lubricated. Proper means that the lube hasn't evaporated or ran out of the gun.

Basically, what I'm getting at, is it takes a lot of work to keep a small .380 reliable, if you shoot it. I put WAY more care and effort into maintaining my guns than probably 98% of the public. And I typically have good results because of it.

Most folks I see at the range have a dirty, unlubricated/dry gun. If the gun is older, do you think the person inspected the condition of the gun, to include the springs, and repaired/replaced them as necessary? The majority of folks you see at the gun range just do not know how to lubricate and care for semi auto pistols. Which can be a good reason why they tend to jam. Especially the small .380's that have less margin for error.
 
Why do some folks come to a forum looking for answers when there not going to be found here . I stopped buying factory lower priced ammo do to inconsistency ion QC of the years . Our family has 2- bersa 380cc and a thunder plus , 4 years with a P250 380sc along with 2- tcp's and there has have not been a single failure to function yet and practice ammo is home rolled 95gr hi-tek coated rn . These pistols have been used as part of the learning curve for our girls and grand son when about 8 or 9 years old and all serve at some point as a carry option . All pistol are run wet with synthetic 0w20 motor oil . HP ammo is mainly Remington 102gr golden saber or underwoods same bullet standard load .
 
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What else can you tell us?

"Captain in the Marines" tells me he's youngish and probably has never fired a 1911. You lube a 1911, or its mini versions a lot differently than you do the current crop of polymer framed guns and if you try to run one almost dry like you would a Glock, it will fail.
Well, I don't know what else to tell you. The gun wasn't brand new, but well maintained. He told me he had about 300-500 rounds through it.

Also, I must be doing something wrong. I lube my 1911s exactly the same as I do my M&Ps and they both work fine. I don't have it dripping with oil, but it isn't dry either.

If the .380Auto needs to be precision lubed in a very particular way and if not followed will lead to a malfunction, that would just add to my doubts about it being a reliable self-defense tool.

What ammo were they using? and were the failures resulting in a particular magazine or in all of them.
See post #192

All of the failures you describe appear to be failures to go completely into battery, given the lack of any mark on the primer.
I thought so too at first. However, that was not the case. The slide was fully closed and the round fully chambered when we had the fail-to-fire malfunctions.

It should not be doing that, and I suspect a QA issues, regardless of being a Sig.
On this we are in complete agreement.
 
If the .380Auto needs to be precision lubed in a very particular way and if not followed will lead to a malfunction, that would just add to my doubts about it being a reliable self-defense tool.

It doesn't. The answer to your questions:

*Bad shooters
*Bad ammo
 
Funny tread with 205 post . Rastoff worry's about 380 brands and models of pistols many of use have never had problems with and with no cure to be found here for rastoff's problems .
 
It doesn't. The answer to your questions:

*Bad shooters
*Bad ammo
I agree, it shouldn't need to be lubed in a special way.

In the case posted in #192, the fail-to-fire can't be the shooter or ammo. It has to be the gun. The shooter can't induce the firing pin to not hit the primer. It can't be the ammo because the ammo can't prevent the firing pin from hitting the primer. Sure, the primer could be seated too deeply, but that wansn't the case here.
 
I wish I'd never sold my Bersa 383.
Trigger was good. Gun was as reliable as any auto I've owned.
Very comfortable in the hand.
Then again, I have a Makarov 9x18 and a CZ82 9x18.
The Mak has a thinner grip and is better for CC and the CZ has ambi controls and holds 12+1.
Plus, night sights are available for the CZ, AND mine has the best DA pull of ANY DA auto I've owned.
 
I'd kind of like to have a small .380, but I have yet to come across one that meets my personal reliabilty standards and that I'd have confidence in. Getting a reliable one is often hit or miss based on a lot of what I've read.

Many .380's just seem to be inherently unreliable. Maybe it's simply due to the small size and perhaps that combined with less of a recoil pulse to keep the slide cycling reliably on such a small gun that's difficult to get a good grip on. Just a theory.

In a defense situation, I can't count on having a perfect grip like can be established in range conditions, so any gun that requires it is a no-go for me. Carrying one is definitely better than nothing even if it's not the most reliable option, but I just haven't yet found one I consider worth purchasing. Just my perspective, YMMV
 
Last weekend I went to the range to try out a 1965 Walther PPK in .380 acp.

I was using S&B and Aguila Ammo.

The S&B will continue fail to ignite......try it in my Sig Sauer P250, same issue. I think the primers used on this ammo are too hard.

One round in the PPK took 3 strikes to fire, one on the Sig took 4!

I change to Aguila ammunition, both guns fuction perfectly. Other shooters at the range fired both guns using Aguila, no failures.

Bottom line I stick with Aguila for this two guns, I have to try my G-42 with S&B and see if it likes it.
 
Plus, night sights are available for the CZ, AND mine has the best DA pull of ANY DA auto I've owned.

Those Cz are awesome guns. Last week end at the range I fired a CZ P07 (In 380 acp....Mexican Market version). Excellent handgun!
 

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