Using rifle powder in a pistol

[fredj338]

Nobody said they couldn't. Some of the powders used in .44 Magnum could be properly classed as rifle powders. Most of the popular target pistol powders are sold as "shotgun" powders.

The operative words aren't "rifle powder", they're "powder I have no data for".

However, in regards to this case--

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

OP's powder -- IMR 7828, #136
Your powder -- AA 1680, #69

Powder's cheap. Data is easy to get. Powder companies can be reached by telephone.

Sure, you can work without published data, but why bother?

Now you are being a bit dishonest. The original question, you may have forgotten:

"I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this"?

Later he asks about 7828, but the earlier responses were all "no, stick to the book, danger, danger". Some of us know that you can use some rifle powders safely w/ mixed results & stated that, but rebuked as being unsafe, which os how the whole safety issue got pushed to the front. The fact one has a bunch of powder is reason enough to ask & maybe experiment with. The point of the entire threads beginning.

 

[Wise_A]

You ain't lived until you've been lectured on being over-careful by a guy with one eye. Got an earful, and after he left, I turned to the shop owner and asked, "How long you known 'em?"

"'Bout thirty years, give or take," he says.

"How'd he lose his eye?"

"Gun blew up."

 

[fredj338]

You ain't lived until you've been lectured on being over-careful by a guy with one eye. Got an earful, and after he left, I turned to the shop owner and asked, "How long you known 'em?"

"'Bout thirty years, give or take," he says.

"How'd he lose his eye?"

"Gun blew up."

Sure ignore the original premise & keep screaming the sky is falling.
After 40yrs of reloading more than 30 diff caliber, several wildcats, i'm still here, guns & body parts all in place. So yeah, no idea what i'm doing. Just pure luck, i should buy lotto tickets.

 

[AveragEd]

I'm a former tournament trapshooter and was fortunate enough to do some winning during my time with my best showing being the 2000 Pennsylvania Class AA State Champion with one of seven 200-straights out of 1,536 entrants. And like a lot of trapshooters, I used my own loads most of the time. In fact, I bought cases of new shells primarily to get once-fired hulls for reloading. But did I ever meet some real characters of that hobby!

One guy, who was a pretty decent shot and former live bird shooter, was lecturing a bunch of newbies about why he used a wad intended for straight-walled hulls like Federal Gold Medals in tapered hulls like the Remington STS. He told them that because you have to reduce the powder charge by a grain or so due to the tighter fit of the wad in the hull creating higher pressure, you save money. "A grain here and there adds up," he told his eager listeners and they nodded their heads in agreement.

I used IMR PB powder, one of the most expensive choices of the time, and shot about 10,000 shells per year. When I did the math using what a grain of PB cost times 10,000, the savings realized by using the wrong wad would have amounted to a whopping ten bucks over a year.

That same guy used to mix his own powders in his basement. His son said he left the house when his dad was playing chemist and would never use any shells he loaded.

I saw guys put electrical tape on split hulls, apply a little glue to primers when their primer pockets became oversize from using cheaper imported primers and scrounging used wads from in front of the trap houses.

My point is that handloading should be something done to better match your ammunition to your firearm with saving money as a secondary benefit. I also do it for enjoyment as I find it a great way to burn my free time. And safety HAS to be a primary concern for your protection as well as those near you when you shoot that ammo.

Ed

 

[Wise_A]

Sure ignore the original premise & keep screaming the sky is falling.
After 40yrs of reloading more than 30 diff caliber, several wildcats, i'm still here, guns & body parts all in place. So yeah, no idea what i'm doing. Just pure luck, i should buy lotto tickets.

Actually, that was an aside. A story. I thought it was pretty funny at the time. Other people I have told it to have chuckled heartily.

Humor: It's a thing people do.

Nobody's screaming the sky is falling. Nobody said you were the one missing an eye.

If this is what you need to feel like a man in the midst of all us schoolgirls--you got it. We are all terrified little ladies, you are the manly man who reloads wildcats. Rrawwwr, fierce!

Me--if some guy I don't know asks, "I wanna reload X in Y, but there's no data"...my answer's gonna be the same thing. Not a great idea. Maybe the combo's bad, but also maybe he calculates wrong. I figure, if he has to ask how or if, then he doesn't know how, and a forum thread isn't the place to learn how. Ain't even about my personal practices. I do all sorts of **** I wouldn't recommend to the innocent bystander.

If that makes me a coward or a wuss in your book, then so be it. I ain't readin' it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to clean some WST out of my doilies.

 

[lhump1961]

It's fine buck, as once said, "a man's got to know his limitations".
I am not advocating that shooters go off book, even though the vast majority do. What I am opposed to are the self proclaimed experts that say NEVER do this or that, because they read it someplace. My expertise are diff than your or someone elses. Nothing self proclaimed about it. Just is what it is.

I'm going to chime in here and disagree...I don't think the "vast" majority do. I have been loading since I was a kid learning from my Dad...about 45 yrs of loading for me and more for him. Many, many pistol and rifle calibers along with shotgun from 410 to 12 gauge. I have never loaded a powder in a cartridge I couldn't find data for nor do the folks I know. I'm sure there are a few but they are in the minority. That doesn't mean I've never pushed the limits or on the rare occasion experimented outside of the data but I've never just started making stuff up from scratch...I've never found a reason to and nothing in this thread has changed my mind. I'm not suggesting it can't be done successfully but it would be at a high cost of time and components. If the zombies come and I don't have a choice then perhaps. But no zombies yet.

There are infinite possible combinations and if a person enjoys the process of experimentation then by all means go for it. If great loads are discovered then they can publish and maybe make a few bucks.

edit: To clarify I will use the example of why would there be data for a powder in 9mm 115g and 147g but not for 124g? A person could easily and safely work up a load for the 124g using that powder. But I wouldn't try 3031!

 

[Biggfoot44]

.500 S&W is not typical of "handgun" ctgs. It is more similar to .45-70 than typical handgun ctgs .

John Ross is a pioneer in .500 load development, and he is firm believer in 100% densities with rifle powders vs 20% load densities with pistol powders.

Even at that, 7828 is really slow. But if all those bottles of 7828 are just staring at you, and your curiosity overwhelms you, give it a try. It is not physically possible to reach dangerous pressures in that with 7828, to the contrary, pressures will probably be to low for consistant burning.

Try heaviest cast bullet you can, with compressed load. Heavy crimp, hot primer, etc.

And I'm proud of myself for not mentioning the "D word" .

 

[buck460XVR]

My point is that handloading should be something done to better match your ammunition to your firearm with saving money as a secondary benefit. I also do it for enjoyment as I find it a great way to burn my free time. And safety HAS to be a primary concern for your protection as well as those near you when you shoot that ammo.

Ed

This has been my point since the beginning of this thread. Not how big my balls are compared to someone else, not whether or not it can be done, but why would one want to do it in a scenario where there are the correct and more appropriate components readily available?

The .460mag and .500mag are impressive firearms with a impressive price tag, and it takes an impressive amount of money to feed them. Folks need to be aware of this when they buy one. I constantly see folks asking about using cheap bullets intended for use in .45 Colt and .45ACP in .460mag at legitimate velocities. They spend $1000 or more on the firearm, $.60 a piece for brass and then want to save a dime or so apiece using inappropriate bullets and don't want to spend another $20 for an appropriate powder. They buy a high performance gun and then throw poor performing rounds downrange in order to save a few cents a shot. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Even tho they have never reloaded for a X-Frame, they believe they will find a recipe that outperforms published loads using random oddball components they have on hand and then others that have never reloaded for a X-Frame tell then to go for it.

I reload for the X-Frames to save money over factory ammo. I do not have to use sub-par components to do so. I use appropriate component to give me the performance I expect from them and to ensure my firearms last(thin wall jacketed bullets will eat the forcing cones on X-Frames). Even with appropriate handgun powders, in order to get peak performance from either X-Frame, one will be close to 100% density and very long cry from 20%.

Now you are being a bit dishonest. The original question, you may have forgotten:

"I've got lots of rifle powder, and would like to use some in my S&W 500. How does one go about this if there is no load data for this"?

Later he asks about 7828, but the earlier responses were all "no, stick to the book, danger, danger". Some of us know that you can use some rifle powders safely w/ mixed results & stated that, but rebuked as being unsafe, which os how the whole safety issue got pushed to the front. The fact one has a bunch of powder is reason enough to ask & maybe experiment with. The point of the entire threads beginning.

While a valid question from a new reloader, the answer most of us have given "it may work, but will probably not work well." is also valid. If one wants to experiment and go outside the envelope of published loads, they should really know what kind of performance published loads give first. 7828 is one of the slowest of rifle powders, the concern of safety with it in .500 mag IMHO, would be a stuck bullet, not fear of over pressure. Stuck bullets/barrel obstruction have probably blown up as many guns as over pressure. So again, to the OP, get some appropriate powder.

 

[AveragEd]

So again, to the OP, get some appropriate powder.

Or wear a sign, "Ballistics experiment in progress" when you shoot your experimental ammo.

Ed

 

[fredj338]

I'm going to chime in here and disagree...I don't think the "vast" majority do. I have been loading since I was a kid learning from my Dad...about 45 yrs of loading for me and more for him. Many, many pistol and rifle calibers along with shotgun from 410 to 12 gauge. I have never loaded a powder in a cartridge I couldn't find data for nor do the folks I know. I'm sure there are a few but they are in the minority. That doesn't mean I've never pushed the limits or on the rare occasion experimented outside of the data but I've never just started making stuff up from scratch...I've never found a reason to and nothing in this thread has changed my mind. I'm not suggesting it can't be done successfully but it would be at a high cost of time and components. If the zombies come and I don't have a choice then perhaps. But no zombies yet.

There are infinite possible combinations and if a person enjoys the process of experimentation then by all means go for it. If great loads are discovered then they can publish and maybe make a few bucks.

edit: To clarify I will use the example of why would there be data for a powder in 9mm 115g and 147g but not for 124g? A person could easily and safely work up a load for the 124g using that powder. But I wouldn't try 3031!

You would be wrong. Unless you load exactly the primer, brass, powder & bullet, you are going off the book. It's just a matter of degree. You are extrapolating. Choosing a diff powder is just a diff level of that extrapolation.
In the example asked about rifle powders in the 500. The answer is yes, you could. w/o data, with the right powder. Since Accurate says their 1680 is acceptable, then something like 4198 or RL7 could also be worked up.
In your example. Could you use 3031 in the 9mm, it would go bang, might not cycle the slide, but it would not blow the gun up. So would it be suitable, no as it would not cycle the action.

 

[fredj338]

Actually, that was an aside. A story. I thought it was pretty funny at the time. Other people I have told it to have chuckled heartily.

Humor: It's a thing people do.

Nobody's screaming the sky is falling. Nobody said you were the one missing an eye.

If this is what you need to feel like a man in the midst of all us schoolgirls--you got it. We are all terrified little ladies, you are the manly man who reloads wildcats. Rrawwwr, fierce!

Me--if some guy I don't know asks, "I wanna reload X in Y, but there's no data"...my answer's gonna be the same thing. Not a great idea. Maybe the combo's bad, but also maybe he calculates wrong. I figure, if he has to ask how or if, then he doesn't know how, and a forum thread isn't the place to learn how. Ain't even about my personal practices. I do all sorts of **** I wouldn't recommend to the innocent bystander.

If that makes me a coward or a wuss in your book, then so be it. I ain't readin' it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to clean some WST out of my doilies.

Still living up to your handle I see. Sad.

 

[fredj338]

While a valid question from a new reloader, the answer most of us have given "it may work, but will probably not work well." is also valid. If one wants to experiment and go outside the envelope of published loads, they should really know what kind of performance published loads give first. 7828 is one of the slowest of rifle powders, the concern of safety with it in .500 mag IMHO, would be a stuck bullet, not fear of over pressure. Stuck bullets/barrel obstruction have probably blown up as many guns as over pressure. So again, to the OP, get some appropriate powder.

Which was my answer. It's just some can't resist being called out when stating something wrong, like "stick to the books, only book data is valid", blah, blah. Then some get their panties all in a wad. Hey I get it, there are guys that load for 1 or 2 cartridges & never go off book. Just don't pretend to know enough to tell other they can't ever do that. As before, it's all about the degree of going off book.

 

[ruggyh]

The 460 and 500 magnums do indeed fall short of the 30-06 in maximum pressure. they also exceed the maximum pressure of the 30-30.

from SAAMI

460 S&W Magnum - Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)
500 S&W Magnum - Maximum pressure 60,000 psi (410 MPa)
30-06 Springfield - Maximum pressure 60,200 psi (415 MPa)

Don't know where you got your information
____________________________________________________

Guys there is data form good sources using "rifle powder" for the 500 S&W.
Is it suitable for your use? That is up to the owner of the decide.
____________________________________________________

If you want reduced recoil loads that have no potential to blow your cylinder into smaller pieces - you cannot overcharge them- "rifle powders" may be for you when used in the 500, but pay attention or an obstruction maybe in your future.

I think this horse has been beat to death.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[buck460XVR]

If you want reduced recoil loads that have no potential to blow your cylinder into smaller pieces - you cannot overcharge them- "rifle powders" may be for you when used in the 500, but pay attention or an obstruction maybe in your future.

I think this horse has been beat to death.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

Ruggyh too has much experience reloading for X-Frames. Again, while it can be done, is it worth it? With the rifle powder the OP has, it probably isn't worth a feeble attempt even at reduced recoil loads. His powder is too slow even for that.

Which was my answer. It's just some can't resist being called out when stating something wrong, like "stick to the books, only book data is valid", blah, blah. Then some get their panties all in a wad. Hey I get it, there are guys that load for 1 or 2 cartridges & never go off book. Just don't pretend to know enough to tell other they can't ever do that. As before, it's all about the degree of going off book.

You keep quoting me claiming I said stick to the book or you'll blow your gun up, but none of those quotes said that. They only said the OP will probably get poor performance, which is correct. Since I generally go commando, it's kinda hard to get nuttin' in a wad.

Another thing I hafta agree with ruggyh about. This horse has been beat enough.

 

[forestswin]

The people of this country have already been divided up enough!
Must we be so passionately sub-divided over smokeless powder?

There are rules for safety and there is wiggle room.
Be safe!

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Has anyone obtained satisfactory results using non-dairy coffee creamer?

Might work with the previously listed 1 microgram of nitro as a kicker !

Eddie

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Do powder companies give load data over the phone? I would have thought in this day in time of lawsuits the answer would be, "Don't do anything that isn't in the book."

Yes they do.

 

[fredj338]

You keep quoting me claiming I said stick to the book or you'll blow your gun up, but none of those quotes said that. They only said the OP will probably get poor performance, which is correct. Since I generally go commando, it's kinda hard to get nuttin' in a wad.

Another thing I hafta agree with ruggyh about. This horse has been beat enough.

So where did I say in your last quote about blowing up anything? I was actually agreeing with you about certain powders being less than useful. I think you are just it defensive mode buck. Read the whole thing.

 

[rwsmith]

Some gun powders....

Please let us know when you decide to try the one microgram of nitro load as I would like to be watching .....at a safe distance of course !

Eddie

Some gun powders have nitro in their formula. Just saying that anything that goes 'pow' will push a bullet out of the barrel, but I don't venture into that territory.

When he was a kid a friend of mine shaved match heads to load his home made cannon and it went off while he was 'ramming the ball home' and almost took off the front of his skull and went right through the cellar ceiling.

Update: I see where powders have been developed that use RDX as an explosive component.

 

[rwsmith]

Short reply.....

Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean that you should do it.

 

[rwsmith]

There are more factors......

There are more factors than burn rate. That's just the easiest for loaders to relate to. Burn temperature and amount of gas produced. That's how powders with similar burn rates can differ.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Some gun powders have nitro in their formula. Just saying that anything that goes 'pow' will push a bullet out of the barrel, but I don't venture into that territory.

When he was a kid a friend of mine shaved match heads to load his home made cannon and it went off while he was 'ramming the ball home' and almost took off the front of his skull and went right through the cellar ceiling.

Update: I see where powders have been developed that use RDX as an explosive component.

 

[rwsmith]

Yes,

Might work with the previously listed 1 microgram of nitro as a kicker !

Eddie

The creamer slows down the explosion rate.

PS: I just found out that nitroglycerin burns at 9000 deg F. I wouldn't shoot a string of bullets because the gun would probably melt.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The slowest powder I used for a revolver load was IMR 4227.

The 357 Magnum had "Blow Back", so I stopped using it.
My J frame snub nose cylinder froze from the dirty unburned powder.
In my 9mm, a full load was not enough to work the slide and could cause a SQUIB.

W296 or 2400 would be my choice of powders in the slow burn rates,
if you have them for your 500.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Old eyes got me today. I picked up a box of 125 gr Gold Dot's and a box of Hornady 125's to load some +p 38's for my Colt Cobra. Load is either bullet in Federal nickle cases ( today anyway ) with CCI sp primers and 7 gr of long shot. I loaded 50 of the Hornady's and then 50 of the Gold dots . AS I was putting everything away I noticed that the Gold Dots were not .357 but were for a 357 Sig so they were .355 . This Sucks !

Done some reading on the internet and found a fairly large number of posts stating that this does work but may require a bit more crimp than normal.Went outside and fired one and it sounded like a cap gun ! Stuck a bullet about 1 inch up the barrel . Got the hickory after it and it pops out no problem showing nice deep groves. I got my dies back out and put the seating / crimp die back in the press with the seating stem run out till it could not contact the bullet. Screwed the die body in another 1/4 turn at a time till I got a very heavy crimp. This should work because I read it on the internet. Wrong !! The first bullet hit the 2 inch stick on target I use no problem. The next one sounded like a lady finger firecracker ! Out comes the hickory . Same on the next three so I decided the crimp does not work. Funny thing is ....... NO load book says you should or could use .355 bullets in .38 special . Not saying this can't be made to work but I am saying it didn't . Guess I will just have to buy the correct size bullets and always be sure I wear my glasses when buying bullets.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

The people of this country have already been divided up enough!
Must we be so passionately sub-divided over smokeless powder?


Yes .

 

[lhump1961]

You would be wrong. Unless you load exactly the primer, brass, powder & bullet, you are going off the book. It's just a matter of degree. You are extrapolating. Choosing a diff powder is just a diff level of that extrapolation.
In the example asked about rifle powders in the 500. The answer is yes, you could. w/o data, with the right powder. Since Accurate says their 1680 is acceptable, then something like 4198 or RL7 could also be worked up.
In your example. Could you use 3031 in the 9mm, it would go bang, might not cycle the slide, but it would not blow the gun up. So would it be suitable, no as it would not cycle the action.

I'm not wrong just because we differ...the argument has been posted so I'll let it go at that.

 

[rwsmith]

Two things....

...

Done some reading on the internet and found a fairly large number of posts stating that this does work but may require a bit more crimp than normal.Went outside and fired one and it sounded like a cap gun ! Stuck a bullet about 1 inch up the barrel . Got the hickory after it and it pops out no problem showing nice deep groves. I got my dies back out and put the seating / crimp die back in the press with the seating stem run uo till it could not contact the bullet. Screwed the die body in another 1/4 turn at a time till I got a very heavy crimp. This should work because I read it on the internet. Wrong !! The first bullet hit the 2 inch stick on target I use no problem. The next one sounded like a lady finger firecracker ! Out comes the hickory . Same on the next three so I decided the crimp does not work. Funny thing is ....... NO load book says you should or could use .355 bullets in .38 special . Not saying this can't be made to work but I am saying it didn't . Guess I will just have to buy the correct size bullets and always be sure I wear my glasses when buying bullets.

I wonder how a roll crimp die for a .38 special would do for this?? One time a friend gave me .38 with 9mm bullets and light loads. They shot well, but they were more of a novelty than anything.

The store I go to never has 124 grain 9mm bullets, always 115 grain. (stupid, I know) Every time I snatch a lone box of ammo marked 9mm 124 grain, and thinking it's my lucky day, look closer and it's for 9mm Makarov. Lesson. Wear your glasses.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

I wonder how a roll crimp die for a .38 special would do for this?? One time a friend gave me .38 with 9mm bullets and light loads. They shot well, but they were more of a novelty than anything.

The store I go to never has 124 grain 9mm bullets, always 115 grain. (stupid, I know) Every time I snatch a lone box of ammo marked 9mm 124 grain, and thinking it's my lucky day, look closer and it's for 9mm Makarov. Lesson. Wear your glasses.

If I had anything to post a picture with I would post one of what a 357 sig GD looks like after it has been crimped heavily with an old time roll crimp die ! The dozen or so that I had left that were re crimped have basically a Keith style crimp groove in them now. The ones that I didn't re crimp look just like they did new out of the box. Live and learn . I'll take the unopened box I have back and give the other box to a friend who shoots 9mm .

Eddie

 

[fredj338]

I'm not wrong just because we differ...the argument has been posted so I'll let it go at that.

Yeah, i guess it depends on what your definition of is, is?