SuperMan
Member
...never cared for them either... Only own one L...686-7 .38 Super.
Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special
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...never cared for them either... Only own one L...686-7 .38 Super.
Not everyone. Love my N frame .357s. Don't care for the looks of L frames or the weight hung in the underbarrel lug instead of in the frame and cyl where it counts.
Yes, he did. I buddy of mine read all his articles, he was a fan. Just so happens he blew up his own .38.
I only tried one of his reloads once. A .35 Remington in a 336. Nothing bad happened but ah, no thanks. I was more into downloading my .44 Magnum loads. And I rolled very soft shooting 148gr. wadcutters for practice.
I'm lost here. What is the point of cranking up ultra hot loads? I've always loaded for handguns the same as rifles. Pick a bullet that is best for the intended purpose. Then work up the most accurate load. End of story, I've got loads that have never changed in over 50 yrs. The only way I change is if a component is discontinued. The load is for an individual gun, not the cartridge.
I've seen both ends, the ringed barrel boys and the four finger-one ear gang.
I've seen both ends, the ringed barrel boys and the four finger-one ear gang.
I too reload for both. There is a difference here that you are missing. With a rifle, you are reloading for accuracy at distance, 100-1000. With a pistol/revolver, your distance realistically is 0 to maybe 25. I think it would be pretty easy to make the statement that most self defense shootings happen in that range if not in the 0-10 range. Putting a little more juice on the round could make the difference in a "one shot stop" and a multiple shot stop.
You will always have the debate between the 45 ACP crowd that believes slow and heavy wins the day and the crowd that believe fast and smaller is better. Once upon a time the 357 was touted as the best one shot stop round. If you have a good 38 and can get the same performance then why not.
I am not sure why the 357 has that much more allowable pressure over the 38 when they are basically the same cartridge. From what I have read, the only difference is the 357 is about .135 longer. AND, everything I read was this length was done so that individuals wouldn't be able to put the longer cartridge in the 38 and blow it up. That was quite a while ago. I would like to think that the manufactures of modern revolvers would not make an inferior revolver for the 38 just because the pressures are not as great.
I have loaded 38s to the Keith load and used them in my 357. I had to use the 38 case because S&W has made their new cylinders shorter than the older ones. Keith's load in 38 barely fits into the cylinder in my 627. Why S&W made the cylinder shorter is beyond me unless they are trying to save $$.
The only thing I'm missing is if one is so obsessed with worry about the knock down of 38sp vs 357mg, why not just get a 357? Most of the revolvers I encountered with bulged barrels and blown cylinders happen to be 357s. Barrel bulge from squibs and blown cylinders from double charge and Bullseye. Over half those guns were S&W m19s. 38sp tended to be squibs more than blow ups.
The one thing most had in common was owner admitting fault.
The one thing most had in common was owner admitting fault.
It's the concept of modern 38 Special revolver cylinders and frames are made of better steel alloys and likely heat treated to the same standards as a 357 Magnum revolver, so instead of buying a 357 Magnum, just hotrod the 38 Special brass to create a cartridge that provides 357 Magnum ballistics in your 38 Special revolver. I've said it before and I will say it again, I am definitely not a fan of the concept.
The Kid
Member
One doesn't necessarily have to be trying to duplicate full on 357 magnum ballistics to want a little more than factory velocities out of the 38.
Case in point, I regularly shoot my revolvers out to 200 yards, I have 12" gongs at 100, 200, and 300. If you've never tried it you should, it's a lot of fun. I don't shoot factory ammo, because it's expensive and I shoot several hundred rounds per week at certain times of the year when it's not hunting season and the fish aren't biting. But I can tell you that 148 wadcutter loads, which I cast, load, and shoot a lot of, are useless out at 100 yards, they destabilize and groups would be measured in feet if not yards. Much factory 158gr RN ammo only cronos about 750fps out of a 6", I've verified this myself with my guns. The trajectory difference between a 158 at 750-800 and a 158 at 1000fps is substantial out past the 100 yard line. Some bullet designs, like the Lyman 358429 Keith don't shoot well at low speeds, LBT designs had the same problem, either can give precision accuracy but they need to be kicked in the pants. I also carry many different 38s out doing farm and ranch chores and may call on them to kill a porcupine, coyote, wild pig, or sick cow, on game performance in flesh is better with a little more velocity.
Notice as I stated that I'm basically looking for 38/44 performance, 1000-1075fps. This is achievable now inside of +P specs using Alliant Power Pistol. But for nearly a century guys have been doing the same thing with 5.5-6.0gr of Unique, long before the advent of the +P rating. I've done it myself for thousands of rounds. Many old manuals published these loads before they had pressure testing equipment and yes, they were over the pressure spec for standard 38 Special, but apparently not dangerously so or they wouldn't have been published for decades if reports of blown up guns were flooding in.
So if you need a 158 at 1250 or 1400 fps you absolutely need a 357. But there is a range of added performance that is available to the handloader with a K or N frame revolver in good condition that offers more than cheap factory ammo performance safely
Case in point, I regularly shoot my revolvers out to 200 yards, I have 12" gongs at 100, 200, and 300. If you've never tried it you should, it's a lot of fun. I don't shoot factory ammo, because it's expensive and I shoot several hundred rounds per week at certain times of the year when it's not hunting season and the fish aren't biting. But I can tell you that 148 wadcutter loads, which I cast, load, and shoot a lot of, are useless out at 100 yards, they destabilize and groups would be measured in feet if not yards. Much factory 158gr RN ammo only cronos about 750fps out of a 6", I've verified this myself with my guns. The trajectory difference between a 158 at 750-800 and a 158 at 1000fps is substantial out past the 100 yard line. Some bullet designs, like the Lyman 358429 Keith don't shoot well at low speeds, LBT designs had the same problem, either can give precision accuracy but they need to be kicked in the pants. I also carry many different 38s out doing farm and ranch chores and may call on them to kill a porcupine, coyote, wild pig, or sick cow, on game performance in flesh is better with a little more velocity.
Notice as I stated that I'm basically looking for 38/44 performance, 1000-1075fps. This is achievable now inside of +P specs using Alliant Power Pistol. But for nearly a century guys have been doing the same thing with 5.5-6.0gr of Unique, long before the advent of the +P rating. I've done it myself for thousands of rounds. Many old manuals published these loads before they had pressure testing equipment and yes, they were over the pressure spec for standard 38 Special, but apparently not dangerously so or they wouldn't have been published for decades if reports of blown up guns were flooding in.
So if you need a 158 at 1250 or 1400 fps you absolutely need a 357. But there is a range of added performance that is available to the handloader with a K or N frame revolver in good condition that offers more than cheap factory ammo performance safely
Shrek Of The Arctic
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I've been reloading for 20 years or so now. Nowhere near as advanced as most folks here, but...I have avoided any missing digits or destroyed firearms so far. I should add that I mostly load for smoke and thunder, not Nth degree accuracy, or elephant rounds.
When I look back on my list of bad ideas, every single one of them involved pushing a cartridge beyond what the manuals suggest. Not all in a dramatic fashion, but some of them would manage to lock up a cylinder, or I'd make a hot load for a Ruger Blackhawk or an N frame, then sell or trade the gun off.
One of my stupidest was when I just HAD to get a 180 grain .357 to 2K FPS out of a carbine. I was....stupidly fixated on that 2K number. My guns survived it, and I achieved my mission, but....WHY?! Nowadays, I'm happy with the lower velocities I achieve. I shoot all I want without the flinch inducing consideration of blowing up my gun or hurting myself.
Another consideration for me is that one day, I'm gunna pass this celestial plane. When I do, I don't want my friends or loved ones to get hurt by putting the wrong handloaded cartridge into the wrong gun.
There have been folks up here killed in bear attacks when their +P+×5=Whaleygator handloads locked up their revolver. Anymore, I'm a believer in well tested middle of the road to slightly spicy handloads. Anytime my .38 seems too small, I have a .357. If it gets small, I have a .45 Colt...if that should ever get small, there is a whole world of massive options...
I DO think more modern guns can be pushed farther, but I just have not experienced the personal set of circumstances to make it seem like a good idea for these days.
Maybe someone else has circumstances....which I completely respect, but for me
..I need these hands for work, a destroyed firearm would crush me, and even when loading dangerous game ammo, I prefer consistency to a wild powerhouse. Not that anyone in this thread has mentioned any pure madness, but...man...do you hear about it...
My personal .38s will remain within the books for standard and +P. My favorite do it all load is still the classic Skeeter Skelton load of 158 grain LSWC over a fairly stiff charge of Unique.
If bigger, badder, stouter .38 Special is your white whale, I sincerely and respectfully wish you well. We wouldn't be where we are without folks who pushed the envelope. I'm just elucidating the reasons I am not such a brave soul
When I look back on my list of bad ideas, every single one of them involved pushing a cartridge beyond what the manuals suggest. Not all in a dramatic fashion, but some of them would manage to lock up a cylinder, or I'd make a hot load for a Ruger Blackhawk or an N frame, then sell or trade the gun off.
One of my stupidest was when I just HAD to get a 180 grain .357 to 2K FPS out of a carbine. I was....stupidly fixated on that 2K number. My guns survived it, and I achieved my mission, but....WHY?! Nowadays, I'm happy with the lower velocities I achieve. I shoot all I want without the flinch inducing consideration of blowing up my gun or hurting myself.
Another consideration for me is that one day, I'm gunna pass this celestial plane. When I do, I don't want my friends or loved ones to get hurt by putting the wrong handloaded cartridge into the wrong gun.
There have been folks up here killed in bear attacks when their +P+×5=Whaleygator handloads locked up their revolver. Anymore, I'm a believer in well tested middle of the road to slightly spicy handloads. Anytime my .38 seems too small, I have a .357. If it gets small, I have a .45 Colt...if that should ever get small, there is a whole world of massive options...
I DO think more modern guns can be pushed farther, but I just have not experienced the personal set of circumstances to make it seem like a good idea for these days.
Maybe someone else has circumstances....which I completely respect, but for me
..I need these hands for work, a destroyed firearm would crush me, and even when loading dangerous game ammo, I prefer consistency to a wild powerhouse. Not that anyone in this thread has mentioned any pure madness, but...man...do you hear about it...
My personal .38s will remain within the books for standard and +P. My favorite do it all load is still the classic Skeeter Skelton load of 158 grain LSWC over a fairly stiff charge of Unique.
If bigger, badder, stouter .38 Special is your white whale, I sincerely and respectfully wish you well. We wouldn't be where we are without folks who pushed the envelope. I'm just elucidating the reasons I am not such a brave soul
The thing that amazes me is that the negative Nellies here are acting like if we, those that are for getting a little more out of our reloaded ammo, push a little more out of said cartridge, we are being irresponsible fools.
I can only speak for myself. If I build a cartridge, I look at what load data are in reputable manuals and compare to what I find on line and then go from there. I am not sure how squibs came into this discussion but, I would like to think that I can tell when a cartridge is getting a little beyond its abilities. When I increase, it is a little at a time. I look for primer issues and case bulging/splitting.
My original supposition for this threat was that originally the 38 had limitations based upon the manufacturing at the time. With today's manufacturing techniques and better metallurgy I supposed that the 38 could be pushed, if not to 357 then better than what you get across the counter. I saw an article on a new 38 and felt that if it is still relevant enough to keep producing revolvers in the caliber then why not kick the ammo up as well.
I find it amazing that this is making people lose their minds. There is a famous movie quote that I like to put out there from time to time: "A man's got to know his limitations!" (Sorry, not PC enough, A person has got to know their limitations.
)
If you are not comfortable pushing the envelope a little then please, by all means, stay on the curb. As for me, I will look both ways and then cross the street, even if it is not at a crosswalk.
I can only speak for myself. If I build a cartridge, I look at what load data are in reputable manuals and compare to what I find on line and then go from there. I am not sure how squibs came into this discussion but, I would like to think that I can tell when a cartridge is getting a little beyond its abilities. When I increase, it is a little at a time. I look for primer issues and case bulging/splitting.
My original supposition for this threat was that originally the 38 had limitations based upon the manufacturing at the time. With today's manufacturing techniques and better metallurgy I supposed that the 38 could be pushed, if not to 357 then better than what you get across the counter. I saw an article on a new 38 and felt that if it is still relevant enough to keep producing revolvers in the caliber then why not kick the ammo up as well.
I find it amazing that this is making people lose their minds. There is a famous movie quote that I like to put out there from time to time: "A man's got to know his limitations!" (Sorry, not PC enough, A person has got to know their limitations.
)If you are not comfortable pushing the envelope a little then please, by all means, stay on the curb. As for me, I will look both ways and then cross the street, even if it is not at a crosswalk.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special?
Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special ...
Because I have a 686 Plus in 357 Magnum
Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special ...
Because I have a 686 Plus in 357 Magnum
StrawHat
Member
This is one of my revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W Special.
For those who might not recognize it, it is a newer version of the revolver that Phil Sharpe used to create what became the 357 Magnum. Yes, his had Target sights but this is what I have.
This is the revolver that Major Dan Wesson mentioned when asked about heat treated cylinders. His response was something like, "the steel we use is strong enough to handle the pressures without heat treating."
There was a small but popular conversion of these revolvers that involved deepening the chambers to accept the Magnum cartridge. No blowups have been recorded of which I am aware.
I use the Skeeter load in this revolver and have no issues. I have also loaded stouter and found accuracy dropped off.
If I were to find myself in need of a small bore revolver, a 38 S&W Special is what I would choose.
Kevin
For those who might not recognize it, it is a newer version of the revolver that Phil Sharpe used to create what became the 357 Magnum. Yes, his had Target sights but this is what I have.
This is the revolver that Major Dan Wesson mentioned when asked about heat treated cylinders. His response was something like, "the steel we use is strong enough to handle the pressures without heat treating."
There was a small but popular conversion of these revolvers that involved deepening the chambers to accept the Magnum cartridge. No blowups have been recorded of which I am aware.
I use the Skeeter load in this revolver and have no issues. I have also loaded stouter and found accuracy dropped off.
If I were to find myself in need of a small bore revolver, a 38 S&W Special is what I would choose.
Kevin
bmcgilvray
Member
Here's an old thread I stuck up here on the Forum years ago showing some of the .38 Special load testing that has been undertaken over the years here.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests
Because we can. That is part of the adventure of reloading. Can I make it better than factory? That is the fun of it for many. Some get excited with 1 hole groups, some get excited by super velocity. I have participated in both adventures and still do occasionally.
Different strokes for different folks.
Rosewood
Rock185
US Veteran
Another interesting discussion. I loaded plenty of .357, but didn't shoot enough .38 Spcl. to bother loading it. Those of us on the Dept. who carried .357s did qualify with the issued Magnum ammo. We were issued the .357 125 grain JHP from Remington or Winchester; whichever happened to have the contract at the time. I did see a K-frame or two, and a Python with damaged forcing cones. The rangemaster asked me to chronograph the .38 and .357 duty ammo the Dept. was issuing at the time. IIRC, the .357 averaged ~1450 FPS in a 4" revolver.
The 158 grain Underwood .38 +P I tested recently averaged 1207 FPS in a 4" revolver, the Underwood 125 grain averaged 1267 FPS. I have no idea what pressures the ammo produced, but can say that primers looked normal and extraction was easy from both the 2" and 4" revolvers.
The N-Frame Smiths, Pythons and similar Colts, etc., use the shorter cylinders. I always figured that those shorter cylinders were used because prior to the introduction of the .357, those size guns were were chambered in the shorter 38 Spcl. Corporate economy, inertia? I sometimes had to make adjustments when I loaded .357 for my N-Frames. The .357 K and L-frames were a pleasure to load for due to their longer cylinders..
I wouldn't want it to get around, but in my dotage I most often shoot .38 Spcl. in my Colt, and S&W J, K, L, and N-frames, no matter the pressures or cylinder length
The 158 grain Underwood .38 +P I tested recently averaged 1207 FPS in a 4" revolver, the Underwood 125 grain averaged 1267 FPS. I have no idea what pressures the ammo produced, but can say that primers looked normal and extraction was easy from both the 2" and 4" revolvers.
The N-Frame Smiths, Pythons and similar Colts, etc., use the shorter cylinders. I always figured that those shorter cylinders were used because prior to the introduction of the .357, those size guns were were chambered in the shorter 38 Spcl. Corporate economy, inertia? I sometimes had to make adjustments when I loaded .357 for my N-Frames. The .357 K and L-frames were a pleasure to load for due to their longer cylinders..
I wouldn't want it to get around, but in my dotage I most often shoot .38 Spcl. in my Colt, and S&W J, K, L, and N-frames, no matter the pressures or cylinder length
Attachments
Okay, so either Shooting Illustrated was reading my mind or I read theirs. Their latest edition has an article about beefing up the 38 Special. Guess I am not so far off base, huh!
The advertised velocities were not earth shattering by any means but, around 1100+ max but, I still think you can push the 38 to the 1200-1500 safely in the newer manufactured revolvers making it more of what Keith was looking for. I still think the 38 is a relevant caliber but, woefully lacking. Look old timers, you can still have your 700-800fps 38s but, why not let the 38 live up to its potential.
Just saying.
The advertised velocities were not earth shattering by any means but, around 1100+ max but, I still think you can push the 38 to the 1200-1500 safely in the newer manufactured revolvers making it more of what Keith was looking for. I still think the 38 is a relevant caliber but, woefully lacking. Look old timers, you can still have your 700-800fps 38s but, why not let the 38 live up to its potential.
Just saying.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
IMO there is no way to push a .38 Special anywhere near 1500 fps safely. It's difficult to achieve that is a .357 Magnum. (excluding an extremely light bullet)
Do not post data for those loads unless you can link to a reliable source which also gives pressure data.
1500 fps is unrealistic in a .38 Special. So is 1200 fps in most cases. I have a .38 Special +P load with a 135gr bullet that will do 1050 fps from a 4" barrel and that load is pushing the pressure limits of 20,000 psi.
Couple of things here.
1) I have never "published" any load data and wouldn't but, thanks for the warning.
2) You obviously have not seen the published data on Buffalo Bore's website. They have 357 between 1400-1500.
You obviously missed the reason I started this along with the others here that have been doomsday naysayers with loading hot 38 Specials.
I have a 38. Would I ever load 1000+ round to shoot out of it, "Heck no." It is a model 49. Have I loaded 38s hot and shot them out of a 357, Heck yessssssss. Are the new 38s capable of shooting a faster ammo, I believe the quality revolvers could/can. If you think I am crazy then please, by all means, write the editors of Shooters Illustrated and tell them that I and they are crazy. Grab a copy of the latest and see what they have in the article. The guy writing it was using a Korth 38 special. If anyone would/should be concerned about shooting loads that could destroy an expensive gun it would have been him.
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Is SHOOTING ILLUSTRATED a real paper gun magazine or some Internet creation? I'm unfamilar with it.
My google fu found it is an NRA publication and is available in paper option.
Rosewood
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Thank you; never heard of it.
It is a magazine put out by the NRA.
If you go back to my original supposition that gun makers are still making the 38 special and that it is still a relevant firearm, why not make it even more relevant. Elmer pushed the envelope in the 38. The only reason the 357 came about was that they didn't want people to load the more powerful 38 into a gun that wasn't designed to shoot the more powerful round (specifically the 38-44). The cartridge is shorter so that you can load a heaver round into it like the Keith 169-173 gr semi-wadcutter.
Somehow I have spoken heresy here and that I am encouraging people to harm themselves by loading the 38 to such a level that they would blow up their 38 special. My original supposition was that the newly manufacturers are making 38s to a point that they could handle a greater velocity round and keeping the 38 even more relevant.
Sigh, I guess I am just a radical.
My experience, I loaded some 357 to almost max from a well respected reloading manual and shot a couple of those in my model 28 and then they sat around on the shelf for couple years and I broke them down and loaded to a more moderate level. There is no way I would consider shooting 357 power level ammo in a 38 special revolver.
The loading manuals are full of +P and baby magnum loads for 38sp. I would guess that there are more bullets and loads for the 38sp than any other cartridge.
To me anything that is not accurate is not interesting. I've loaded a lot of revolver ammo and load only one heavy. It's an old Ruger SBH. It's running 22.5gr 2400 over 240JHP. Why you ask? Because that is it's sweet spot or it wouldn't be cranking that load.
We have a few locals known for blowing up firearms. Do what turns you on.
I don't think anyone gives the slightest hoot what others do or think. One thing for sure I'm not in awe of somebody hot rodding their 38sp.
To me anything that is not accurate is not interesting. I've loaded a lot of revolver ammo and load only one heavy. It's an old Ruger SBH. It's running 22.5gr 2400 over 240JHP. Why you ask? Because that is it's sweet spot or it wouldn't be cranking that load.
We have a few locals known for blowing up firearms. Do what turns you on.
I don't think anyone gives the slightest hoot what others do or think. One thing for sure I'm not in awe of somebody hot rodding their 38sp.
Torquemada;But honestly said:Um, I believe that was my point. I believe that the new 38s are more than enough gun and that it can be loaded hotter than what general manufacturing is doing.
I thought that I made that point but, I guess I was making a point over some people's head.
SuperMan
Member
If anyone has a subscription to LoadData.com they have listed .38-44 loads...
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