Do we have any solutions to offer?

[Speer4]

If you are human and even slightly sane, you will agree that the recent murders of the school children was horrible. The gun control advocates will use this to drive their agenda. It sounds so logical that people who had no opinion or were on the fence before will be drawn into supporting bans or restrictions. I am seeing it among family and friends already.

I agree completely that something needs to be done to stop these insane people from killing others, but it seems that many only see "one" solution; and that is to take away guns from law abiding citizens. (Which we all know is not really a solution.)

So what other options are there? Defending gun rights is important, but do we have any solutions to offer? Seems the legislators that support gun rights need to offer an alternative solution or gun control will pass for lack of any other ideas. Don't get hung up on why not to ban guns in this thread, please. We all get that. Looking for some dialogue on what else could be done to lower the risk of things like this happening in the future.

Where do these things break down? One thing that always strikes me is that there had to be warning signs that the kids involved in these shootings had mental problems. You have to wonder how the parents missed any signs. If the mother had realized her son was unstable, she could have locked her guns up in a gun safe or used individual gun locks. He may have found one elsewhere, or a knife, or whatever, but it appears he had access to everything she had. I have not heard anything about the father. Not sure if he is still in the picture or not.

I saw a news story the other day from China about how a man attacked 20+ children in a school with a machete. Insane is insane. They will find a weapon of some kind.

Security at the schools could be improved. It would not stop someone who planned an attack, but it might stop someone who is acting on an impulse. Seems most of these types of attacks are planned, though.

Metal detectors seem like they would be ineffective. By the time they are going through the detector, they are inside and armed. If security is not armed and ready to respond, it would be easy for someone to shoot their way in the rest of the way.

The answer here probably needs to be more about recognizing and treating mental health issues than the attacks themselves. By the time the attack is planned, I think it is too late. Maybe there should be some mental health screening processes in place. I had to have a physical before attending high school. Perhaps there should be a psychological evaluation to to determine risk factors.

I don't know... just thinking out loud here. Any other ideas?

-Mike-

 

[Beemer-mark]

No gun control in the world is going to stop these sicko's. Your question is a good one. Instead of our government running around passing gun control laws that make no one safer they should be concentrating on solving the real issue.

 

[snubbyfan]

I don't know the answer. I know banning guns altogether won't work, that'll only ensure that only criminals are armed. I've known inner city dwellers that bragged how they can get any untraceable gun they wanted.
"Gun free" zones should be discontinued. They seem to have become "sitting duck" zones. The School in CT was a locked down gun free zone. The theater in OR was a gun free zone. The mall in Oregon was gun friendly and the shooting ended when a concealed carry permit citizen drew his weapon. The shooter saw this and killed himself for a total of 2 deaths.The presence of an armed citizen kept that shooting from being worse than it was.
In Switzerland, young men between the ages of 20 and 30 are issued Sig550 assault rifles, trained in their use and are expected to undergo Militia training. After training the rifles are converted to semi-auto and the young men are allowed to retain posession. Switzerland has the lowest rate of gun related crimes in the world. In Isreal, schools are protected by armed guards consisting mostly of retired Law Enforcement Officers and ex-military volunteers.
Maybe in this country we can find a way to protect our most valuable resource, our children, by encouraging retired LEOs and military personel to volunteer in guarding our schools. Not by having a full tactical presence but by blending in, dressed in civilian garb and carrying concealed weapons. Actually, I'm kinda iffy on that point. On the one hand an armed guard in full tactical garb may prevent a shooting from even starting but then the guard might just be the first target.
I don't know the answer but I do know somethings gotta be done. After each shooting the Nation's shocked but nothing's done.
The gun community feels helpless and upset that there's nothing we can do. Since these shootings were at "gun free" zones there's nothing we can do to help without breaking the law.
Sorry about my rambling rant but we've got to stop police forcing the world and pay more attention to what's happening in our own country.

 

[GKC]

This is a tough question, and one that my wife and I have been hotly debating since this tragedy. As a bit of background, when we first married, my wife was not comfortable with me owning guns, although I did. Then she was assaulted, and overnight became a gun proponent. (It's funny how a real life incident can alter your philosophical perspective.) Now, though, as a mother herself, she is feeling profound grief for these slain children, and has been saying that gun control is obviously needed, and even that maybe guns should be banned.

As we discussed the issue, I pointed out that the controls that are usually proposed, such as banning assault rifles would not have prevented this tragedy...it is unclear as to what the gunman used, as I have read conflicting reports, but all agree that he did have two handguns with him, so an assault rifle ban would not have stopped him from using a handgun. Magazine capacity limits would not have prevented this tragedy, since at most it would have meant that he would have had to reload, which can be very quickly done...and he did have extra magazines with him. As for registration and/or psychological profiles, the guns were bought by the gunman's mother, not the gunman, and even if such laws were in place, and assuming that had she been tested and passed, it wouldn't have prevented the tragedy.

As for a ban on guns, I reminded her that just a few days ago, we heard a loud noise at our door late at night, and her first reaction was to ask me, "Do you have your gun?" She concedes that she does want to be able to defend herself, or for me to defend us, so taking guns away from responsible people isn't the answer either.

So, what is the answer? I don't know, and I wish I did. I do know that we have to focus on the cause of this violence, and not the tools used. Perhaps it is the evil, degenerate, fallen world we live in, and this is but a sign of worse things to come...but to me, banning all guns is about the same as banning cars to solve drunk driving. Cars don't cause drunk driving, and guns don't kill...the common element is the people who use them. Short of banning people, I don't know of a solution...but we need to find one, and we need to find one that works, not just put a band-aid on the problem and try to feel good because "something" was done.

 

[rcpaul]

Who ever frames the argument controls the out come just the premise of what can we do or what is sensible gun control gives the gun control people a victory. The question that should be asked is why do these tragedies occur at gun free zone. Or how mentally unstable people get guns or are not institutionalized. This is just like the budget debate they always talk about raising taxes first they never talk about cutting spending first. This is about control

 

[Matthew1.21]

I have heard Col. Dave Grossman speak. He is an authority on the subject and I agree with the what he says needs to be done.

He says some form of the Israeli model is our future. The one thing these killers fear is failure. That's why the response to an active shooter has changed. Law enforcement used to wait for back-up or SWAT, but now the first to respond goes in after him. These murderers are cowards; that is why they pick "gun-free zones." We must put armed men and women in our school buildings and busses to deter them to begin with. It will be expensive to implement, but could even be done with qualified volunteers. As Col. Grossman points out, we spend millions and millions on fire protection equipment and drills, but there's been zero deaths from fire over the last 50 years in American schools. But, most Americans are in denial about the threat of these types of mass murders and what it will take to protect our children.

But, it's not just young American killers we have to be concerned with. If you don't remember Beslan, Russia, look it up. The terrorists have promised Beslan is coming to America. I don't think it's a matter of if, but of when; and times 3 or 4. That is they will attack 3 or 4 schools simultaneously. Can you imagine the effect on our economy when parents pull their children out of school because they don't feel they are safe? In most families both parents work, but one would have to drop out of the workforce care for their children.

I am thankful my daughter and daughter-in-law are home schooling my grandchildren.

 

[Comrad]

We need mental patient control not gun control. There are millions of us and a dozen nuts, which do you think would be easier to control?

 

[Joewisc]

Murder rates across the nation have been steadily dropping over the past 40 years; the trend is definitely downward. Check out this official data:
Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

 

[zip777]

I know it would be enormously expensive but this school was on lockdown. If windows were all bulletproof glass on the first floor he has no entry.

Look how much money we spend on drones and other pushbutton weapons of war. I'm sure the glass would be cheaper.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

I know it would be enormously expensive but this school was on lockdown. If windows were all bulletproof glass on the first floor he has no entry.

Look how much money we spend on drones and other pushbutton weapons of war. I'm sure the glass would be cheaper.

or an armed and staffed resource officer department at each school could also work.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

Gun Free zones as Drug free zones only keep out law abiding citizens (that would not be using drugs to begin with) because criminals do not obey the law, we need to harden the target. The mass murderers seem to be cowards, they take their own life rather than face combat with someone that can kill them or wound them. Lock down would be a step in the right direction, next have a number of trained CCW people that are willing to become proficient with a weapon and willing to use it to protect the children or students. It may not be enough to prevent some terrorist from trying....but it can shut down the carnage a lot faster than waiting for police to arrive.
Another problem is mental illness and much goes untreated or in denial. Our economy is struggling to recover and there is no money to help people caught in the cracks. We must be prepared to deal with the criminally insane and possible terrorists that will now see schools as a target that we value above anything else. Our children are precious and the future of our country, we need to take action to protect our schools...laws are not going to get the job done. If this was the military, we would take steps to deal with the threat (and the threat is not the armed American law abiding citizen) We are an asset to this country and one of the reasons we are a strong country. The Taliban could not operate here....as long as we are not a gun free zone...think about it. We have enemies inside and out side of our country...and believe me, they will take note of what we do here. Lets not make this country a soft target for anyone. We need more than one armed guard at the schools....we need a number depending on the size of the school and they must be able to respond quickly with back up as quickly as possible.....there could be more than one shooter and if a man goes down, we still need to be able to stay in the fight so the shooter does not get a chance to concentrate on killing children, let him concentrate on surviving if he is able. The shooter can not kill children and concentrate on murder when his life is under fire. We need people willing to fight with all they have to protect our students...just as our soldiers fight for our freedom and sometimes they give it all. Next soft targets will be super markets, sporting events and other places where people gather and are not expecting danger. We need to stay ahead of the game...terrorism is something we need to think about now because I am sure it is in our future if we do not prepare for it.

 

[Speer4]

Great discussion. There is a lot of misinformation going around, so it will be a while before we know what really led to this, if we ever learn at all. Trying to understand the motives and reasoning of an insane person is probably an exercise in futility, but it is our nature to try.

Some very good points above. I agree with the comment about whoever frames the debate has the upper hand, so the gun owners cannot just sit back and defend ourselves from the gun control lobby. Hopefully we can find a way to lead change that will reduce these risks.

Bullet proof glass would have helped in this situation, since it was a locked facility. I had not thought of that. Something like fire doors that can close off sections when a panic button is pushed would also contain the threat to a smaller area. Far from perfect, but it could help.

I really think the solution has to focus on identifying the mentally ill people that could be threats. Of course, that comes with it's own challenges. It is worrisome to picture a government program to determine who is mentally unstable. It is a pretty subjective evaluation. Even if you had such a program, the examiners would be so afraid of being held liable for one that slips through, they would probably label us all as unstable.

This is definitely not an easy problem to solve. Thanks for the dialogue!

-Mike-

 

[JJEH]

Do we have any solutions to offer?

- Keeping procedure for firearms purchase
- Keeping procedure for obtaining a CCW
- Stricter laws for comitting crimes
- Stricter enforcement
- Faster enforcement
- More people to be hired in LE (Federal, State, City,...)
- Ceasing gun free zones
- No waiting time for any warrant if criminal activity is obvious
- Better equipment for LE
- Vote me for President

 

[silentflyer]

A common thread in all of these tragic shootings is the clear link to mental illness, Va. Tech, Aurora Co., the Arizonian shootings of the congress woman/judge/innocents, and now this. I am not sure about if the wacko involved in the Wisconsin temple shooting earlier this year has been diagnosed with issues.
Some how we have to get these people help and OFF the streets, patient/Dr. patient "privacy" not with standing. These nut jobs are sending out plenty of warnings that get ignored. Of course this means spending money for mental heath programs, a hard sell with some politicians these days.

 

[quneur]

- Keeping procedure for firearms purchase
- Keeping procedure for obtaining a CCW
- Stricter laws for comitting crimes
- Stricter enforcement
- Faster enforcement
- More people to be hired in LE (Federal, State, City,...)
- Ceasing gun free zones
- No waiting time for any warrant if criminal activity is obvious
- Better equipment for LE
- Vote me for President

The forest service in my state often ask for volunteer officers. They go through the same training as other LEO but volunteer part-time. Why couldn't a school board use a similar program?

I believe one solution would be planning. In my little city, the police station is located a block from the local high school. It's not a perfect solution but with police cars constantly driving by, it makes the school less welcoming. In a nearby city, a small police/fire station is located on the same block as the high school and couple of blocks from the junior high/elementary school.

The other option is to have some kind of federal building in areas where the public conjugate like public libraries, athletic centers, job centers, etc. Federal buildings usually have armed LEOs.

 

[Joewisc]

An observation: There are approximately 250 million motor vehicles registered in the U.S., about the same as the number of guns.
There are about 35,000 motor vehicle deaths each year.
There are about 9,500 gun homicides each year.
Thousands of laws exist to make sure the wrong people don't get behind the wheel. Likewise, thousands of laws exist to make sure the wrong people don't get to own a gun.

 

[Joewisc]

Armed cops were at my three grandkids' elementary schools today in Arizona and Georgia. Perhaps this is one answer.

 

[Pasifikawv]

My letter to my federal reps:

As all Americans, I am saddened and sickened by the acts of a madman that took the lives of young children in CT.

I am extremely disappointed that so many legislators have thrown their support behind a renewal of a federal "assault" weapons ban (AWB).

CT has an AWB more stringent than the federal AWB that sunsetted. It did nothing to stop the acts of a madman. No amount of legislation can prevent madmen bent upon destruction from acting heinously. To target the objects that an unstable person uses to act out their psychotic impulses may make us feel warm and fuzzy, but it is not sound public policy and will only impact law-abiding gun owners in the Mountain State and across the USA.

You may not be aware that the AWB largely banned cosmetic and comfort features such as muzzle breaks that reduce felt recoil and muzzle climb for a more comfortable and accurate target practice, forward hand grips that offer greater stability, adjustable shoulder stocks that allow for adjustments for shooters afield with heavy clothing. The notion that the presence or absence of such a feature is the deciding factor as to whether a madman will act heinously is absurd.

The US has a crime and violence problem - not a gun problem. FBI/DOJ statistics indicate that 95% of all gun crime is related to gang activity, yet federal prosecutions of gun crime are shamefully low. For example, our President's home district in Illinois has the most stringent gun laws in the nation but ranks among the highest in violent gun crime, and yet every federal district, save one, has higher rates of prosecution of gun laws.

Violent crime, and violent gun crime in particular, has decreased since the expiration of the federal AWB, even as gun ownership is at record highs and more Americans are exercising their fundamental right to bare arms than ever before. The notion that the presence or absences of the features above are the deciding factor as to whether a gang-banger knocks off a liquor store is absurd: as if a forward hand grip drives a criminal to act.

Crime statistics also show that 4 times as many Americans are killed each year with blunt objects, and twice as many killed with bare hands, than are killed with a long-gun of any kind: labeled "assault" or not. Banning modern sporting rifles or shotguns with comfort features will not reduce crime or violence.

The magazine ban in effect during the previous federal AWB had no impact on crime or violence. CT also has such as ban and it had no effect on that tragedy either. When a gun is used in the commission of a crime, the average numbers of rounds fired is 1.2 rounds. Banning standard issue magazines will not reduce crime or violence. However, it will impact lawful owners renting time at their local range as they will spend more time loading magazines than putting rounds on target.

The UK, with whom we share a common history and a common culture, has tried the gun ban approach. In the mid 1990s, the UK banned private ownership of guns and made self defense generally unlawful. Since that time, violent gun crime has doubled - increasing by nearly 90% in the last decade alone. Today, the UK has a violent crime rate of nearly 4 times the USA (UK: 2,095 per 100,000, US: 466 per 100,000).

Massive social-science research shows the ineffectiveness of gun control in reducing crime and violence. It is a source of continuous amazement that gun control advocates ignore the results of criminological, historical and econometric studies by reputed scholars.

The formation of public policy must be based on a pragmatic desire to reach achievable results - not hot-button political whims or emotional trends of the day. To reduce crime and violence, we must focus on the source - not the tool that a perpetrator of violence chooses to use illegally in his criminal acts. Focusing on conflict resolution, character-building, alternatives to violence training, gang resistance, urban development & employment, problem-solving, and identifying/reporting/treating the mentally ill will reduce violence in our society.

To support a gun ban that will have no effect on rates of violent crime or stop madmen from acting heinously is ill-advised. To support such as misguided policy is an affront to your constituents in the Mountain State and around the nation. It will only impact lawful gun owners and sportsmen. Please resist the pursuit of a reinstatement of the federal "assault" weapons ban.

 

[7shooter]

We need more police officers on the streets and in the schools. Unfortunately law enforcement agencies are being cut back instead of being reinforced.

We also need to allow licensed carry permit holders to carry in schools. The cowards who do these shootings of innocents are not looking for a fair fight. They want to be in control of their own suicides and aren't looking for the indignity of being shot by some Mom visiting her childs elementary school.

 

[hsmith9491]

Video Killing games, Bullying, Removal of Ten Commandments, No God In Schools,
Overlooking Mental Problems of our young, being Politically Correct, Lack of respect in our young. Nobody home to watch over our kids, Movies with drugs, killing and the good life of crime. Walking around with pants dragging on the ground. Most kids have no role models. Each generation is getting pathetic. Open boarders to all the world, What do you expect.