All 4473s are registration forms

[2152hq]

4473's and the surrender of them and the FFLs log book has been an on going arguement with respect to national gun registry since it was demanded of FFL's in the '68GCA.

There's been a court ruling that the ATF cannot computerize the warehoused records, though they have used some microfiche type scanning and retrieving systems. Probably others.
I don't understand the techy side of things .

FFL's can dispose of 4473's if they are older than a certain age,,I can't recall what it is. I should know it having been an 01 for 43yrs.
The log book and any other 4473's goes to Arlington Va facility within 30days of close of business.

 

[johngalt]

I believe FFLs are only required to keep the 4473s for 20 years. The law doesn't specify what happens to the older ones.

ATF is supposedly prohibited from building a database from the forms. That doesn't mean they aren't doing it anyway. A buddy used to have an FFL. back in the Clinton days, during a regular inspection, the agent made copies of all the forms pertaining to EBRs. That is also illegal.

 

[PatriotX]

I'm a LOT more concerned with my state's pistol registration than any national database.

At least they did away with mandatory Purchase Permits. Those were painful to acquire, and only good for 30 days.

How many states have no-check private party handgun sales? I know Indiana does, rendering a national database sort of useless.

 

[GerSan69]

Unless a person is doing something illegal, they "probably" aren't going to end up on the feds' radar. I say "probably" because anyone can get caught up in an investigation simply because you know somebody, or you're related to somebody that's being investigated. Best thing you can do is stay clean, don't bring attention to yourself, and don't let that shady brother-in-law anywhere near your gun safe.

 

[ladder13]

Do you have any idea the size of staff it would take to perform the data entry/scanning/etc. for the MILLIONS of firearms sold daily in America???
.

Wow, I need to buy more Ruger, Smith and Sig stocks.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

If a name shows up for multiple sales throughout the year, surely NICS has a flag to support the quantity they are concerned about. They do ask how many firearms on the transfer. Anything over "one" gets at least a second look at the buyer. Buy a lot in a year and a red flag most likely goes up. Oh: S&W collector of good standing. No problem.

I think they are more concerned about multiple purchases than registration. After all, they are trying to serve and protect.

I have never heard one could destroy old 4473s, so that's new to me.

Someone buying a lot of handguns near the border? Most likely being watched if doing it legally.

I think they can look at your 4473s and your S&D book during an audit/visit if they feel a reason to. They most likely get to know you over the years.

 

[Bill Bates]

In "Abramski vs The United States" (the case concerning straw purchases) Judges referred to the 4473 as de facto registration. The ATF can and do look at them anytime they want without a warrant. The only thing is other than the government storing 4473s they requirer the dealer to store them for 20 years or turn them over to ATF if they change their licenses and or cease business under the original license.

Most dealers have had to send a copy of 4473 off to the ATF when the ATF has requested a search on a firearm. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think the dealer has to get that 4473 to them within 24 hours.

Does the government know you own firearms; sure they do. They know who has concealed carry permits. They record multiple handgun sales in five business days (and in some cases long guns). They do ask when doing a NICS check if it is a long gun or handgun or both sale. Unless all of your sales are from individuals off the books then Big Brother knows. Heck I keep records of all my personal sales and purchases just in case our favorite Uncle wants to where something came from or where it went. I'm not sure the boat accident excuse will play well.

 

[Hillbilly77]

I had a couple guns, but I got hard up for money and sold them.

 

[redlevel]

Heck I keep records of all my personal sales and purchases just in case our favorite Uncle wants to where something came from or where it went. I'm not sure the boat accident excuse will play well.

Neither Federal Law nor Georgia Law requires this. When doing a f/f sale or purchase, I ask to see a GA DL, and preferably a Georgia Firearms License. I do not record anything, and I don't allow the other party to do that. Especially not a DL number or a SS number. I adhere strictly to the law, but don't go a bit beyond. All I'm required by law to do is to not sell a gun to someone I know can't legally purchase one. I will not buy a gun if I have the slightest question. I have passed up some smokin' deals, but don't regret it at all. For the record, 99% of my f/f deals are with people I know, or at least am familiar with. Several people I have done multiple deals with are state or municipal/county LEOs. They are all comfortable with our casual/non-existent record keeping.

 

[eyegots2no]

Heckinohio....

Could you elaborate on.......?

"..... had me to go through my books back to minit one & change any reference to a guns type that may confuse whomever was going to take that information from the forms."

Thanks.

 

[Bill Bates]

I'm completely aware there is no Federal regulation that requires any record keeping when it comes to personal face to face sales. As long as we are not knowingly transferring a firearm to a restricted person we are not violating the law.

Either way when I sell or buy a firearm I requirer a bill of sale and these days I only sell to residents of Utah that have a current concealed firearms permit and Utah ID. Granted they may have done something to have their permit revoked but at least if there is a question I can say I did my due diligence. I would rather not have a question of wether I did know or suspect or should have know the sale was to a restricted person.

 

[BC38]

Bill Bates, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind, you are always innocent until proven guilty - and so is the next guy. Unless the authorities can prove that you knew you were selling to a restricted person they can't even charge you with a crime - much less convict you. The burden of proof is pretty high for something like that, and the charge would never even make it to court unless you said you knew the buyer was prohibited. Plus you'd probably have grounds for a false arrest case.

 

[ClayCow]

Bill Bates, I can understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind, you are always innocent until proven guilty - and so is the next guy. Unless the authorities can prove that you knew you were selling to a restricted person they can't even charge you with a crime - much less convict you. The burden of proof is pretty high for something like that, and the charge would never even make it to court unless you said you knew the buyer was prohibited. Plus you'd probably have grounds for a false arrest case.

Unfortunately. Wrong or not itll take alot of time and money on your end initially to get yourself cleared. If you know anything about the government, you will understand they have deep pockets and nothing but time. If you survive, you may be rewarded with a payout.

I personally dont do what Bill does. But, whats funny is that were against the government keepig a database on us, but we seem to build our own....

 

[blujax01]

Im not talking about paper copies done in the past. Im talking about now where ita going digital

I filled out an electronic 4473 at Cabela's last month when I bought my Henry Big Boy .357 (had to throw that in there, lol) and in the end, they're still a paper record.

The digitalization of the form is only to make certain it is legible. I worked in a shop part time that doesn't have the technology to go computerized and the handwriting on these things was terrible. Very often, they were so bad that they had to be shredded and a new one filled out again before the transaction could be completed. And an ATF inspector is not amused by illegible forms. Anyway, after the info is provided, it is printed out for signature and filed. Cabela's swears they do not retain the electronic copy but I assume you always have the option of filling one out by hand.

This is all moot anyway. Rumor has it that all of my guns were sold anonymously in a government sponsored no-questions-asked buyback program.

 

[dougb1946]

You should be worried about the data your bank has. They know about every check you write-to who and how much. Your retailer knows what kind of toothpaste you use, size of your tidy whities and how often you buy them, how much toilet paper you use and what brand, where you bank, where you live, and can probably get you Soc sec number without much problem.

Your credit card company has you digitized completely-where you live, how much you make, where you make it and what you do to make it, how you spend it, how you play and with who you play. Your local library knows what you read. Your grocery store can use facial recognition software to track you through the store and record what you look at for how long (may want to stop checking out the magazine covers) and will program ads to send to your smartphone while you are near a specific product.

Your car has a computer and/or GPS that can track and record every place you go, stop, speed, and turn. The camera on your computer can be turned on by a hacker to watch and track what you do, and if you carry any cell phone, the phone company knows where that phone is at any given time, records this and knows who you are calling for how long, and NSA knows what you are saying.

I won't even talk about the neighbor who watches every move you make and likes to make movies. That little drone outside your bathroom window? The child writing his "what did you do this summer" paper for a nosy school board.

The 4473 is a piece of paper in a book, really low on the list of privacy invasions. Privacy is a myth. Anonymity rests in numbers. There are 320 million people to watch.

 

[cmj8591]

Not to mention the little ads that pop up on the side of this web page based on my last Google search from this computer.

What Doug says is very true. Privacy really is a myth. It always has been if you live in a society. The thing is that everyone here wants to be a needle in a haystack when what we already are is a needle in a pile of needles.

 

[ClayCow]

Not to mention the little ads that pop up on the side of this web page based on my last Google search from this computer.

What Doug says is very true. Privacy really is a myth. It always has been if you live in a society. The thing is that everyone here wants to be a needle in a haystack when what we already are is a needle in a pile of needles.

You can VPN it and not store cookies itll VPN will make you anonymous unless a hacker comes looking for you.

 

[Muss Muggins]

When LE needs to find a gun possessor, they go backwards and forwards. They ask the person in possession where he got it, and they go to the manufacturer to find out where it was first shipped. More often than not, the latter process plays out until the gun was stolen, lost, or sold to "Joe" . . .

 

[pharmer]

ATF has been computerizing 4473's for at least 20 years. When I "did not renew" my type 01 FFL in 1995, I sent my bound book and 4473's to the ATF facility at Falling Waters WV for just that purpose. Fortunately, some of the information is useless the more time elapses. Joe

 

[BC38]

ATF has been computerizing 4473's for at least 20 years. When I "did not renew" my type 01 FFL in 1995, I sent my bound book and 4473's to the ATF facility at Falling Waters WV for just that purpose. Fortunately, some of the information is useless the more time elapses. Joe

OK, you surrendered your records - as required. And you know they put them into a computer... how? What makes you think the book didn't just get put into storage as is? What is your evidence to support the idea that they were computerized?

For the ATF to computerize all the 4473 records and create a database from them is an activity that they are explicitly forbidden to do under the law. To even attempt it would require THOUSANDS of data entry clerks working round the clock. So you're actually saying you believe that something like this could be kept secret for over 20 years with that many people involved?

Uh huh, just like the alien bodies and flying saucers at area 51 in Roswell. Oh, wait, that isn't a very good example is it - since it isn't secret and hasn't been for 50 years? And there are only a few dozen people who would have had to keep their mouths shut about that for it to stay a secret - if there were ever anything to keep secret in the first place.

That's the problem with the idea of some huge conspiracy. People just can't keep their darned mouths shut, and nothing stays secret for any length of time. This has always been true and it is more true now in the internet age than ever. The old saying that "three may keep a secret - but only if two of them are dead" is applicable here. Especially when it is something as sensitive as gun registration.

This is one of the most active gun boards on the net and this thread has 38 posts and 713 views and yet NOBODY has been able to provide one shred of anything more than opinion to support the idea that the ATF is creating a secret, illegal database from 4473 forms. Several folks have given reasonable explanations and examples why this is extremely unlikely. Yet some people, with no supporting evidence and in the face of every reasonable argument against it, continue to insist these conspiracy theories are facts.

Why is that?