Florida Open Carry

[Mike SC Hunter]

The sky is falling.

No.......I have it propped up with sky hooks

 

[smithra_66]

OK, I really didn't want to start a political discussion but the Florida Open Carry proposal has me in a quandary. Let me first baseline my position: I am a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment; I have been a CCW permit holder since 1995; I realized that I needed handgun training and have taken personal defense courses; I have a wide collection of firearms, both vintage and modern; I belong to a local Rifle and Pistol Club and occasionally compete; I routinely shoot at my son's state-of-the-art gun store & range; I am an NRA RSO.

So what is my quandary? I'm not sure that Florida citizens should be allowed to Open Carry a firearm without a background check or any required training. I have seen way too many new gun owners and CCW permit holders that have never taken any firearms training courses, rarely if ever go to the range to shoot, and barely know how to operate or clean their firearms. That's scary enough, but now we're talking about letting anyone strap on a handgun or carry a rifle/shotgun in public. For what purpose? Do they just want to be cool and show off just because they can, or do they think that openly displaying their weapon will deter criminals? Openly carrying a firearm may make that person the criminal's first target! And do they understand firearm retention?

My wife, who is a CCW permit holder, an occasional shooter, and who accepts my penchant for firearms, is totally opposed to and afraid of open carry. She knows that there are a bunch of borderline "nuts" out there, and who knows what may result from passing this Florida legislation. I realize that there are many other states that allow open carry and their statistics show that most of the fears of violence are totally unfounded. Back in the day I openly carried a handgun when fishing or hunting, and I had a shotgun in the back window of my vehicle- but it was legal back then and times were different. But this is modern Florida...we have daily shootings/murders, growing gang violence, several recent mass murders, road rage shooting incidents, and a constant influx of illegal aliens (some of whom are violent). Am I being over cautious? I guess that I just have to continue to research both sides of the argument and to give this more thought. Opinions?

What other constitutional rights do you think should be subject to "training" administered by the state?

 

[smithra_66]

When the discussion involves the government "allowing" someone to exercise a constitutionally protected right we have lost that right.

Bingo. And we're on a gun forum, no less! This isn't even the Huffington Post!

 

[smithra_66]

As a fellow Floridiot I have a healthy respect for "The Law Of Unintended Consequences". As such, regardless of how much "more safe" people will feel by being allowed to open-carry handguns (if and when it comes to pass), I fear that there will most likely be a spike in 1) Reckless display; 2) Unintentional discharges; 3) gun loss due to carelessness; 4) gun loss due to criminal activity; and 5) an unintended increase in the number of innocent by-standers killed or injured during crimes.

The the best of my knowledge and Google skills, there is no "open carry" allowed in Florida. If it is ever enacted, I guess we will just have to let enough time pass to see if my fears comes to pass or if and entire state full of Floridians will actually surprise me.

Many states have open carry laws and have for centuries. Your fears do not play out in reality.

 

[smithra_66]

Federal and state courts have ruled, over and over and over again, that rights are not absolute or without reasonable restrictions. We don't live in a libertarian fantasyland.

So you're pro 2nd Amendment, as long as someone has the proper clothing on to conceal their gun? Otherwise you're not?

I'm just trying to figure out how you'd argue this one in court.

I don't remember seeing anything about clothing and concealment in the Bill of Rights?

 

[Nomadmax]

There is no evidence that I am aware of that open carry people have been shot first during a robbery or other incident. Occasionally, sloppy open carry, and sloppy concealed carry, have had to deal with their pistols getting grabbed.

I encourage every Florida citizen to contact their legislator and express their opinion about this legislation . . .

You've never heard of a security guard shot first by someone in the commision of a crime? A uniformed police officer who had their weapon taken and killed with it?

In my 26 years as a police officer, I've seen it happen more times than I can count. I know this is going to be an unpopular post and that's ok. I'll start by saying I 100% support the right of any law abiding citizen to openly carry a weapon.

However, having worked closely with violent offenders for nearly three decades, I can tell you what most of them think when they see someone carrying a weapon out in the open. They see a fearful person who wants everyone to know they have a gun and are not to be trifled with. Violent offenders know that fear causes hesitation, and in general, everyday citizens are also fearful of what will happen after a shooting incident; because most of the time, they stand to lose a great deal if judged to be wrong.

Usually, an animal on street has been in lockup before and isn't afraid of it, moreover, some aren't afraid of death. They've been in violent encounters before and know that a split second of hesitation can sometimes create an opportunity for them to prevail.

Committed action is almost ALWAYS faster than reaction. When someone knows what they want to do AND they know you have to be dealt with before you have any idea something is amiss, they have an advantage. That grave tacitcal error has absolutely proven fatal, over and over again. As I said, truly bad guys see open carry as fear and opportunity. It doesn't matter if it's true because their perception and how they deal with it is the reality.

Again, I 100% support the right to open carry. I'll go even further and say that I'm glad some people choose to wear firearm related clothing, display bumper stickers, fly Gadson flags or whatever else they choose to do. As someone who has survived deadly encounters, I refuse to give up a tactical advantage that I don't have to.

 

[Muss Muggins]

You've never heard of a security guard shot first by someone in the commision of a crime? A uniformed police officer who had their weapon taken and killed with it? . . .

My position is that the simple fact of open carry was not the primary motivation for crimes like that, but rather the victim's position of authority, identified primarily by the uniform, and secondarily by the openly carried firearm . . .

 

[Beemerguy53]

So you're pro 2nd Amendment, as long as someone has the proper clothing on to conceal their gun? Otherwise you're not?

I'm just trying to figure out how you'd argue this one in court.

I don't remember seeing anything about clothing and concealment in the Bill of Rights?

Hmmm...I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. I took no position on this specific issue, other than to offer the opinion that I don't see any advantage to open carry.

What I said was "federal and state courts have ruled, over and over and over again, that rights are not absolute or without reasonable restrictions." A simple Google search will verify the accuracy of that statement.

 

[biku324]

Indeed. Otherwise the First Amendment would have not allowed laws on libel, slander, defamation, and some forms of assembly, all upheld for a couple of centuries.

 

[dockmurgw]

I only open carry at the beach, proper concealment with a speedo is difficult.

 

[Jon651]

Iowa went for personal carry in 2009. Concealed or not - permit was for WEAPONS! They are now no permit. We have not seen any problems. Florida simply has a few whiners who are scared of guns.

We might have a few whiners who are scared of guns, but I am of the opinion they are not actually FROM Florida, if you get my drift!

 

[biku324]

I only open carry at the beach, proper concealment with a speedo is difficult.

Particularly a 625.

 

[Engine49guy]

Don't remember the Governor saying that, but could have. What really stopped the problems were putting fulltime security in the rest stops and changing the tags on the rental cars. The perps could tell which cars were rentals by the tags, so the state reissued new plates to all the rentals and then they looked like the locals. We still have security at the rest stops, just now it is a private firm, not the State Police.

You are 100% correct, back then all rental and leased cars in Florida had the cursed "Z" tag , the letter Z on your tag was a hint you were a tourist and unarmed making you a target , Robbers would look for "Z" cars near the airport then rear end you in a stolen car, when you got out they'd rob you at gunpoint knowing tourists were flush with cash and unarmed.

 

[majick47]

If the FL concealed carry bill passes which city would you rather visit, Miami or New York City?

 

[Buford57]

It is my absolute right under the 1st Amendment to walk up to Mike Tyson and tell him his tattoos are ugly and his breath smells like ears.

Prudence tells me today is not the day to exercise that right.

 

[CH4]

What motor oil is everyone using in their Harleys?

 

[ladder13]

What motor oil is everyone using in their Harleys?

Wolfs Head

 

[Dvus]

When Oklahoma went open carry there were a few who decided to push the envelope as to what they could carry where, and were quickly rebuked by both local law enforcement and the shooting public in general. Since then, crime has dropped, road rage incidents are almost unheard of, and now almost all carry is concealed. Very rare to see an openly displayed weapon. You may not agree with it, but it's a small step towards permitless carry. You may disagree with that as well, that's your privilege, but here it has been abundantly positive.

 

[smithra_66]

Hmmm...I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. I took no position on this specific issue, other than to offer the opinion that I don't see any advantage to open carry.

What I said was "federal and state courts have ruled, over and over and over again, that rights are not absolute or without reasonable restrictions." A simple Google search will verify the accuracy of that statement.

Good. So then you DO NOT think open carry should be restricted. Right?

 

[tlawler]

You are 100% correct, back then all rental and leased cars in Florida had the cursed "Z" tag , the letter Z on your tag was a hint you were a tourist and unarmed making you a target , Robbers would look for "Z" cars near the airport then rear end you in a stolen car, when you got out they'd rob you at gunpoint knowing tourists were flush with cash and unarmed.

I've rented a couple of cars in the last few weeks, through Hertz and Enterprise. I noticed that the sticker on the tags was "PM" instead of a date. Once again, rental cars with tourists may be singled out. I well remember when it happened before.