.38 Special non hollow point loads for a 4"

Most "big" ammo companies lead bullets are swaged from fairly soft lead. They deform but at .38 Special velocities rarely expand even when hollow pointed. Most also badly lead the bore of ones gun...

The boutique companies like BB and Underwood use cast bullets that are significantly harder than swaged lead. They also cost a lot more to make. The cast bullets don't lead the barrel nearly as bad as swaged and don't deform as much when hitting something like bone.

As to standard pressure .38 Special for SD...I spent 30+ years in LE and private security and you would never catch me carry that ammo when something better is available. I have nine friend/acquaintances who were all involved in shooting people or things with +P and eight changed guns and calibers after the shootings...

I like to learn from the experiences of others:
Shots Fired: Palm Desert, California 03•30•1996 | Police Magazine

Buffalo Bore or Underwood 158 +P solids or HPs is what I carry in my 649-2...

But if you want low recoil...I'd go the full wadcutter at 900 fps...

Bob
 
According to these Lucky Gunner tests, you can expect about 19-21" penetration with 158gr LSWC +P ammunition and zero expansion. There are several choices that offer impressive expansion at the cost of penetration like Fed Micro HST or Golden Sabre. Look at the chart and see what fits your needs.
 
Last edited:
I really appreciate all the information that has been given. I am going to order as many 148 grn WC as I can afford next payday. Shoot a box out of each revolver. and be sure I am on target. I may also grab a box of 158grn SWC for S&G's. Thanks again to all of you!
 
I bought 5 cases of Privi .38 spl “standard pressure” loads back in 2019 when it was reasonable @$129/500. It is listed @904 fps for both SWC and SWCHP. It is “full power” without being unpleasant. I’ve already burned up the 1K SWC and just a little more than 1K left. I recommend it highly. Joe
 
Hello to all. I live in NJ where we are not allowed to use hollow point rounds for self defense. I have a 67-1 4" and a 10-6 4" HB.
We can use Hornady Critical Defense Ammo 38 Special 110gr Flex Tip. I prefer to stay with standard velocity rounds since I practice with what I plan on using in an emergency. I do have a 686-0 for large furry critters (God forbid). Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated from the fine and knowledgeable forum folks here.
If there is already a thread posted for this please give me the link
PS I do not reload.

You won't have any problem with leading if you are using factory loaded 148 grain Wadcutters. They are swaged soft lead and typically around 750 FPS. Bad guys hate it when you use them.
 
The problem today as in past with soft wadcutters is bad performance on glass and car doors and drywall . With today's car jacker's and home invaders you may need the hard cast to reach bad guys. The standard 158 swc hard cast performs well and hits to point of sight in fixed sited wheelguns. A standard pressure load at 850 fps will reach the boiler room and perform well in today's world. Shot placement is always gueen and reaching vitals will keep you seeing another sunrise. Every bullet you fire you are accountable for,no pray and spray. Keep safe and avoid trouble as best as you can,use your street smarts.
 
Last edited:
I was able to pick up a few boxes of PPU 148grn. wad cutters. I took them and my Model 10-8 to the range this morning. I also had some Armscor 158grn FMJ as target ammo. The wad cutters were on target as were the Armscore but I did have a few F2F on the first strike with the Armscor.
So, due to the accuracy and ability to make many follow up shots accurate I will be loading my 10-8 with wad cutters for night stand duty.
 
I can't find anything on the interweb about PPU 148 gr wadcutters. What velocity are they purported to have?
 
I was able to pick up a few boxes of PPU 148grn. wad cutters. I took them and my Model 10-8 to the range this morning. I also had some Armscor 158grn FMJ as target ammo. The wad cutters were on target as were the Armscore but I did have a few F2F on the first strike with the Armscor.
So, due to the accuracy and ability to make many follow up shots accurate I will be loading my 10-8 with wad cutters for night stand duty.
Hmmmm... wonder if the strain screw in your Model 10-8 is fully tight or if it was shortened or a replacement main spring was installed in order to lighten the trigger pull. These are the usual culprits with failure to ignite a primer, especially when firing double action.
 
Exactly what benefits are claimed from using “hard cast” bullets? It just struck me as being simply meaningless advertising babble, but I never was interested enough to look into it
I've been casting my own bullets since 1972 and spent a lot of time and effort studying the works of Col. E.H. Harrison (Cast Bullets, an NRA publication) and others. Perhaps I can provide some perspective on the subject of "hard cast".

Lead is a relatively soft and malleable elemental metal. In the pure state lead will melt at about 650F and can easily be indented or scored with a fingernail. On the Brinell Hardness Scale pure lead has a rating of 7-8.

By the late 19th Century many shooters were adding small percentages of tin (from 2-10 percent) to their casting lead. When alloyed with lead the tin improves fluidity in the metal, providing cleaner and more detailed casting results, while also raising the Brinell hardness rating to about 10-12. A disadvantage to this practice is the cost of tin, which is easily 10 times the cost of lead.

Printers used block printing presses for many years, wooden frameworks with lines of print made of cast lead alloys, providing repeated uses to reproduce printed materials quickly and inexpensively. The alloys used included linotype and monotype, which contain lead alloyed with tin and antimony (also tiny percentages of arsenic) resulting in Brinell hardness ratings from 20-30 (2.5 to 4 times the rating of pure lead).

Reloaders and bullet casters found that linotype and other printing metals were widely available in most communities and could be used in casting bullets for higher performance than pure lead (either by themselves or when alloyed with lead for less demanding applications).

Automobiles became widely used in the US by the WW2 years, and wheel balancing was routinely done using wheel weights attaching to the wheel rims. Wheel weight metal was an alloy of lead, tin, and antimony with a Brinell hardness rating of about 12. This proved just about ideal for use in handguns in general, as well as many rifle calibers.

Adding hardness using tin and antimony produces some useful effects for our purposes:

1. Increased resistance to melting of the bullet bases due to powder flame temperatures. Such melting can cause smearing of the bore and splattering of other surfaces (widely referred to as "leading", a condition that requires greater efforts to keep the firearm clean and operable).

2. An associated benefit with increased melting resistance is found as the bullet passes through the bore and rifling, where the temperatures caused by friction increase as velocities are increased. Short version, harder bullets can be pushed faster than softer pure lead without the concerns of lead transferring or depositing in the bore and rifling.

3. Increased resistance to distortion, both during the firing cycle as rapidly rising pressures are applied to the bullet, as well as when striking a target where the softer lead bullets tend to upset more so than the hardened lead alloy bullets.

I could add a chapter or two about bullet lubricants, but the above outlines the basics.

Like everything else, there are compromises to be made. Soft lead bullets upset and expand more readily and at lower impact velocities/energies, thus are less likely to penetrate deeply and can cause increased soft tissue damage. Harder bullets can be expected to penetrate more easily, travel deeper in the target, and usually better performance against solid materials such as bone or barrier materials. However, hardness above a certain level can also cause cast bullets to become excessively brittle and potentially shatter when impacting solid materials.

For firearm uses pure lead bullets are generally limited to around 800-850FPS before leading can become an issue. At such velocities even pure lead will seldom demonstrate much distortion upon impact, and penetration will be limited to the energy levels.

Bullets in the range of BHN 12-15 (wheel weights and harder) can be delivered at velocities in the 1400-1500FPS range without much difficulty, thus double the velocities and about 4 times the energy of pure lead bullet loads.

I have personally had success with cast bullets in centerfire rifles at velocities at or slightly above 2500 FPS using alloys in the range of BHN 20-24 (also gas checks, which is another subject to be considered). This provides useful performance comparable to service loads in .30-06, and far exceeds the .30-30 cartridge.

Hope this helps in understanding how "hard cast" came into common use. There is no universal definition of the term, but it is understood to mean bullets produced with alloys providing greater strength and resistance to slumping (deformation) and temperatures.
 
Since we are talking 158gr bullets in 38sp we are not going to be shooting over 1000fps with cast bullets. Therefore the hardness of bullet means little. In fact the softer you can get away with at reasonable velocity would be hardest on soft tissue.
I wouldn’t recommend the imported Wad Cutters, they are low velocity even compared to similar American loads. Cast a WC of same alloy you would SWC or RN you would load at 1000 FPS and it will work out fine.
When I say 1000fps is general top end and recipe from any loading manual. Actual velocity will depend on barrel length ect.
 
Since we are talking 158gr bullets in 38sp we are not going to be shooting over 1000fps with cast bullets. Therefore the hardness of bullet means little. In fact the softer you can get away with at reasonable velocity would be hardest on soft tissue.
I wouldn’t recommend the imported Wad Cutters, they are low velocity even compared to similar American loads. Cast a WC of same alloy you would SWC or RN you would load at 1000 FPS and it will work out fine.
When I say 1000fps is general top end and recipe from any loading manual. Actual velocity will depend on barrel length ect.
I just used a lot more words to say pretty much the same thing!
 
38 Special WC 9.60 g (148 gr)
0 10 20 30 40 50
Velocity [m/s] 245 238 231 224 218 211
Energy [J] 288 271 255 241 227 215
Trajectory [cm] -1 0.7 0.7 -1.2 -5.0 -10.8
 
Last edited:
Hmmmm... wonder if the strain screw in your Model 10-8 is fully tight or if it was shortened or a replacement main spring was installed in order to lighten the trigger pull. These are the usual culprits with failure to ignite a primer, especially when firing double action.
Strain screw look original and is all the way in. Every other brand of ammo I used yesterday functioned perfectly.
 
Last edited:
I essentially agree with what Lobo says in post #52. It's apparent he got his cast bullet education the best way by reading the works of recognized experts (Hatcher, for one) and from his own experience. It didn't happen overnight and he could clue in many Internet/YouTube hotshots, if they would only listen.

Just to add a little to what Lobo said...in rifle chamberings, many have found that the softest bullet that will stand up to the load (no leading) will usually be the most accurate. I see no reason that this wouldn't apply to handgun chamberings as well. This is more of an accepted truth or axiom rather than the often flawed but ingrained "conventional wisdom".

While I've never been an Elmer Keith disciple, many are. Keith used soft bullets (10-11 BHN range) for hunting, even large game. These bullets could be given good velocity, they penetrated adequately, didn't lead bores, were accurate and likely expanded well.

If you're shooting through cars, buildings, bullet proof vests, multiple armed criminals in single file, etc., as many gunfighting aspirants dream of and prepare for these days, then harder bullets are probably better than soft ones.

It takes some work to get the alloy just right for the intended purpose, but the effort is worth the trouble.
 
A couple passes with a few strands from a Copper Chore Boy pad on a brush and you are good to go.

The Chore Boy method works and I've used it, but quit when I discovered Brownells "Double Tuff" bronze brushes. Very stiff bristles in comparison with standard brushes. These work as well as Chore Boy but are much handier and they last a good while. They cost more than a standard brush but are worth it for the convenience.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top