Exactly, and the pressure isn't all gone out the GAP.
Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special
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Exactly, and the pressure isn't all gone out the GAP.
SuperMan
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...they already had the round of the full potential of the time...the .38-44 also known as the High Speed...it's all they could get out of the .38 Special case with the powders of the time.
As to why the .357 Magnum and why only in the the N-Frame...
1) NEW GUN SALES! S&W had bragging rights to the most powerful handgun made...
2) RECOIL!!!! Anyone here like shooting full load .357s from Js and Ks?
Only reason that the mid size .357s came about was the *****ing and moaning from LEOs who didn't like carrying N-fames and New Service size guns. And rarely did any department require them to qualify with full charge .357 ammo...it was all waddcutters. When liability issues came up when it was discovered that officers were not qualifying with what they carried and had to change...the Ks shook apart and the Ls came to be. Which is why Ls have full underlugs...recoil control.
Force is mass times acceleration measured (usually) in joules. Force is directional. It is not the same as pressure measured in psi, although closely relatable.
In one application to revolvers, just because a cylinder can contain a load's pressure, does not mean the revolver frame (or other pieces) is designed to withstand multiple applications of the force exerted by the load.
In one application to revolvers, just because a cylinder can contain a load's pressure, does not mean the revolver frame (or other pieces) is designed to withstand multiple applications of the force exerted by the load.
smithra_66
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The 38-44 was definitely not loaded to the full potential of the 38 Special. The Keith load of 13.5 grains of 2400 under his 173 gr. LSWC was way more powerful, and that is what led S&W and Winchester to pull the trigger on the 357 Magnum. The ammo companies made the 38/44 right alongside normal pressure 38 Special. They drew the line at Keith's loading and insisted on making it impossible to load that into any old 38, hence the 357 Mag.
1) This is not the reason. The new cartridge was seen as too powerful for existing guns and they built it on top of the 44 frame which later was named the N frame.
Sales were definitely another benefit, although the first 357s were extremely exclusive and rare items, and VERY expensive. They discontinued the program in only a few years when WW2 hit. Only a little more than 5,000 were built in the 5 or so years of the program.
2) Tons of people shoot 357s today from J's and K's. J's didn't even exist in 1935, and like I mentioned above, K's were thought to be too light for the new cartridge in terms of strength and holding the gun together over the long haul.
You're right about the new guns in the 50s. Bill Jordan wanted a smaller, handier gun and the Combat Magnum was created on the K-frame. You're also right that they used light loads most of the time. When they went to full charge loads for practice in the 70s, this is when they started seeing cracked forcing cones, etc. Obviously durability was still a concern by the 50s.
But I'm not sure why you wouldn't think the K's of the 30s wouldn't have shaken apart as you indicate the later K's did. Durability WAS the concern which is why the N fame was used in the 30s. And you're right, it's why the L frame came about! It solved the problems of the old K frame guns when it came to durability with full power 357 Magnum rounds.
This article answers lots of these questions:
GUNS Magazine Handloading for Medium and Large Frame .38 Specials - GUNS Magazine
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bmcgilvray
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I always enjoy thoughtful articles by writers who can avoid the dithering, "" sky is falling" cautions we see these days.
StrawHat
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And weigh the same as the N frames. Yet, excepting myself, everyone seems to dote on the L frame?
Kevin
ruggyh
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The generated gas pressure in the system is the same on all surfaces and will dissipate out the BC gap.
The very nature of pressured systems is equalization.
Once the bullet stops at the obstruction there are no outside forces on the gas to prevent it from equalizing with atmosphere (the pressure outside the BC Gap).
If you think otherwise were does it go?
crstrode
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SuperMan
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You may have read me incorrectly...I do believe Pre-War Ks would have been beaten up by those heavy .38-44 loads... I have always said Post-WWII of S&W and Colt were up to it, not pre-war guns... And the Ks were beaten up by full charge .357s, not .38-44 loads... We may be talking about two different things...
Bob
SuperMan
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...never cared for them either... Only own one L...686-7 .38 Super.
Not everyone. Love my N frame .357s. Don't care for the looks of L frames or the weight hung in the underbarrel lug instead of in the frame and cyl where it counts.
Yes, he did. I buddy of mine read all his articles, he was a fan. Just so happens he blew up his own .38.
I only tried one of his reloads once. A .35 Remington in a 336. Nothing bad happened but ah, no thanks. I was more into downloading my .44 Magnum loads. And I rolled very soft shooting 148gr. wadcutters for practice.
I’m lost here. What is the point of cranking up ultra hot loads? I’ve always loaded for handguns the same as rifles. Pick a bullet that is best for the intended purpose. Then work up the most accurate load. End of story, I’ve got loads that have never changed in over 50 yrs. The only way I change is if a component is discontinued. The load is for an individual gun, not the cartridge.
I’ve seen both ends, the ringed barrel boys and the four finger-one ear gang.
I’ve seen both ends, the ringed barrel boys and the four finger-one ear gang.
I too reload for both. There is a difference here that you are missing. With a rifle, you are reloading for accuracy at distance, 100-1000. With a pistol/revolver, your distance realistically is 0 to maybe 25. I think it would be pretty easy to make the statement that most self defense shootings happen in that range if not in the 0-10 range. Putting a little more juice on the round could make the difference in a "one shot stop" and a multiple shot stop.
You will always have the debate between the 45 ACP crowd that believes slow and heavy wins the day and the crowd that believe fast and smaller is better. Once upon a time the 357 was touted as the best one shot stop round. If you have a good 38 and can get the same performance then why not.
I am not sure why the 357 has that much more allowable pressure over the 38 when they are basically the same cartridge. From what I have read, the only difference is the 357 is about .135 longer. AND, everything I read was this length was done so that individuals wouldn't be able to put the longer cartridge in the 38 and blow it up. That was quite a while ago. I would like to think that the manufactures of modern revolvers would not make an inferior revolver for the 38 just because the pressures are not as great.
I have loaded 38s to the Keith load and used them in my 357. I had to use the 38 case because S&W has made their new cylinders shorter than the older ones. Keith's load in 38 barely fits into the cylinder in my 627. Why S&W made the cylinder shorter is beyond me unless they are trying to save $$.
The only thing I’m missing is if one is so obsessed with worry about the knock down of 38sp vs 357mg, why not just get a 357? Most of the revolvers I encountered with bulged barrels and blown cylinders happen to be 357s. Barrel bulge from squibs and blown cylinders from double charge and Bullseye. Over half those guns were S&W m19s. 38sp tended to be squibs more than blow ups.
The one thing most had in common was owner admitting fault.
The one thing most had in common was owner admitting fault.
It's the concept of modern 38 Special revolver cylinders and frames are made of better steel alloys and likely heat treated to the same standards as a 357 Magnum revolver, so instead of buying a 357 Magnum, just hotrod the 38 Special brass to create a cartridge that provides 357 Magnum ballistics in your 38 Special revolver. I've said it before and I will say it again, I am definitely not a fan of the concept.
The Kid
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One doesn’t necessarily have to be trying to duplicate full on 357 magnum ballistics to want a little more than factory velocities out of the 38.
Case in point, I regularly shoot my revolvers out to 200 yards, I have 12” gongs at 100, 200, and 300. If you’ve never tried it you should, it’s a lot of fun. I don’t shoot factory ammo, because it’s expensive and I shoot several hundred rounds per week at certain times of the year when it’s not hunting season and the fish aren’t biting. But I can tell you that 148 wadcutter loads, which I cast, load, and shoot a lot of, are useless out at 100 yards, they destabilize and groups would be measured in feet if not yards. Much factory 158gr RN ammo only cronos about 750fps out of a 6”, I’ve verified this myself with my guns. The trajectory difference between a 158 at 750-800 and a 158 at 1000fps is substantial out past the 100 yard line. Some bullet designs, like the Lyman 358429 Keith don’t shoot well at low speeds, LBT designs had the same problem, either can give precision accuracy but they need to be kicked in the pants. I also carry many different 38s out doing farm and ranch chores and may call on them to kill a porcupine, coyote, wild pig, or sick cow, on game performance in flesh is better with a little more velocity.
Notice as I stated that I’m basically looking for 38/44 performance, 1000-1075fps. This is achievable now inside of +P specs using Alliant Power Pistol. But for nearly a century guys have been doing the same thing with 5.5-6.0gr of Unique, long before the advent of the +P rating. I’ve done it myself for thousands of rounds. Many old manuals published these loads before they had pressure testing equipment and yes, they were over the pressure spec for standard 38 Special, but apparently not dangerously so or they wouldn’t have been published for decades if reports of blown up guns were flooding in.
So if you need a 158 at 1250 or 1400 fps you absolutely need a 357. But there is a range of added performance that is available to the handloader with a K or N frame revolver in good condition that offers more than cheap factory ammo performance safely
Case in point, I regularly shoot my revolvers out to 200 yards, I have 12” gongs at 100, 200, and 300. If you’ve never tried it you should, it’s a lot of fun. I don’t shoot factory ammo, because it’s expensive and I shoot several hundred rounds per week at certain times of the year when it’s not hunting season and the fish aren’t biting. But I can tell you that 148 wadcutter loads, which I cast, load, and shoot a lot of, are useless out at 100 yards, they destabilize and groups would be measured in feet if not yards. Much factory 158gr RN ammo only cronos about 750fps out of a 6”, I’ve verified this myself with my guns. The trajectory difference between a 158 at 750-800 and a 158 at 1000fps is substantial out past the 100 yard line. Some bullet designs, like the Lyman 358429 Keith don’t shoot well at low speeds, LBT designs had the same problem, either can give precision accuracy but they need to be kicked in the pants. I also carry many different 38s out doing farm and ranch chores and may call on them to kill a porcupine, coyote, wild pig, or sick cow, on game performance in flesh is better with a little more velocity.
Notice as I stated that I’m basically looking for 38/44 performance, 1000-1075fps. This is achievable now inside of +P specs using Alliant Power Pistol. But for nearly a century guys have been doing the same thing with 5.5-6.0gr of Unique, long before the advent of the +P rating. I’ve done it myself for thousands of rounds. Many old manuals published these loads before they had pressure testing equipment and yes, they were over the pressure spec for standard 38 Special, but apparently not dangerously so or they wouldn’t have been published for decades if reports of blown up guns were flooding in.
So if you need a 158 at 1250 or 1400 fps you absolutely need a 357. But there is a range of added performance that is available to the handloader with a K or N frame revolver in good condition that offers more than cheap factory ammo performance safely
Shrek Of The Arctic
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I've been reloading for 20 years or so now. Nowhere near as advanced as most folks here, but...I have avoided any missing digits or destroyed firearms so far. I should add that I mostly load for smoke and thunder, not Nth degree accuracy, or elephant rounds.
When I look back on my list of bad ideas, every single one of them involved pushing a cartridge beyond what the manuals suggest. Not all in a dramatic fashion, but some of them would manage to lock up a cylinder, or I'd make a hot load for a Ruger Blackhawk or an N frame, then sell or trade the gun off.
One of my stupidest was when I just HAD to get a 180 grain .357 to 2K FPS out of a carbine. I was....stupidly fixated on that 2K number. My guns survived it, and I achieved my mission, but....WHY?! Nowadays, I'm happy with the lower velocities I achieve. I shoot all I want without the flinch inducing consideration of blowing up my gun or hurting myself.
Another consideration for me is that one day, I'm gunna pass this celestial plane. When I do, I don't want my friends or loved ones to get hurt by putting the wrong handloaded cartridge into the wrong gun.
There have been folks up here killed in bear attacks when their +P+×5=Whaleygator handloads locked up their revolver. Anymore, I'm a believer in well tested middle of the road to slightly spicy handloads. Anytime my .38 seems too small, I have a .357. If it gets small, I have a .45 Colt...if that should ever get small, there is a whole world of massive options...
I DO think more modern guns can be pushed farther, but I just have not experienced the personal set of circumstances to make it seem like a good idea for these days.
Maybe someone else has circumstances....which I completely respect, but for me
..I need these hands for work, a destroyed firearm would crush me, and even when loading dangerous game ammo, I prefer consistency to a wild powerhouse. Not that anyone in this thread has mentioned any pure madness, but...man...do you hear about it...
My personal .38s will remain within the books for standard and +P. My favorite do it all load is still the classic Skeeter Skelton load of 158 grain LSWC over a fairly stiff charge of Unique.
If bigger, badder, stouter .38 Special is your white whale, I sincerely and respectfully wish you well. We wouldn't be where we are without folks who pushed the envelope. I'm just elucidating the reasons I am not such a brave soul
When I look back on my list of bad ideas, every single one of them involved pushing a cartridge beyond what the manuals suggest. Not all in a dramatic fashion, but some of them would manage to lock up a cylinder, or I'd make a hot load for a Ruger Blackhawk or an N frame, then sell or trade the gun off.
One of my stupidest was when I just HAD to get a 180 grain .357 to 2K FPS out of a carbine. I was....stupidly fixated on that 2K number. My guns survived it, and I achieved my mission, but....WHY?! Nowadays, I'm happy with the lower velocities I achieve. I shoot all I want without the flinch inducing consideration of blowing up my gun or hurting myself.
Another consideration for me is that one day, I'm gunna pass this celestial plane. When I do, I don't want my friends or loved ones to get hurt by putting the wrong handloaded cartridge into the wrong gun.
There have been folks up here killed in bear attacks when their +P+×5=Whaleygator handloads locked up their revolver. Anymore, I'm a believer in well tested middle of the road to slightly spicy handloads. Anytime my .38 seems too small, I have a .357. If it gets small, I have a .45 Colt...if that should ever get small, there is a whole world of massive options...
I DO think more modern guns can be pushed farther, but I just have not experienced the personal set of circumstances to make it seem like a good idea for these days.
Maybe someone else has circumstances....which I completely respect, but for me
..I need these hands for work, a destroyed firearm would crush me, and even when loading dangerous game ammo, I prefer consistency to a wild powerhouse. Not that anyone in this thread has mentioned any pure madness, but...man...do you hear about it...
My personal .38s will remain within the books for standard and +P. My favorite do it all load is still the classic Skeeter Skelton load of 158 grain LSWC over a fairly stiff charge of Unique.
If bigger, badder, stouter .38 Special is your white whale, I sincerely and respectfully wish you well. We wouldn't be where we are without folks who pushed the envelope. I'm just elucidating the reasons I am not such a brave soul
The thing that amazes me is that the negative Nellies here are acting like if we, those that are for getting a little more out of our reloaded ammo, push a little more out of said cartridge, we are being irresponsible fools.
I can only speak for myself. If I build a cartridge, I look at what load data are in reputable manuals and compare to what I find on line and then go from there. I am not sure how squibs came into this discussion but, I would like to think that I can tell when a cartridge is getting a little beyond its abilities. When I increase, it is a little at a time. I look for primer issues and case bulging/splitting.
My original supposition for this threat was that originally the 38 had limitations based upon the manufacturing at the time. With today's manufacturing techniques and better metallurgy I supposed that the 38 could be pushed, if not to 357 then better than what you get across the counter. I saw an article on a new 38 and felt that if it is still relevant enough to keep producing revolvers in the caliber then why not kick the ammo up as well.
I find it amazing that this is making people lose their minds. There is a famous movie quote that I like to put out there from time to time: "A man's got to know his limitations!" (Sorry, not PC enough, A person has got to know their limitations.
)
If you are not comfortable pushing the envelope a little then please, by all means, stay on the curb. As for me, I will look both ways and then cross the street, even if it is not at a crosswalk.
I can only speak for myself. If I build a cartridge, I look at what load data are in reputable manuals and compare to what I find on line and then go from there. I am not sure how squibs came into this discussion but, I would like to think that I can tell when a cartridge is getting a little beyond its abilities. When I increase, it is a little at a time. I look for primer issues and case bulging/splitting.
My original supposition for this threat was that originally the 38 had limitations based upon the manufacturing at the time. With today's manufacturing techniques and better metallurgy I supposed that the 38 could be pushed, if not to 357 then better than what you get across the counter. I saw an article on a new 38 and felt that if it is still relevant enough to keep producing revolvers in the caliber then why not kick the ammo up as well.
I find it amazing that this is making people lose their minds. There is a famous movie quote that I like to put out there from time to time: "A man's got to know his limitations!" (Sorry, not PC enough, A person has got to know their limitations.
)If you are not comfortable pushing the envelope a little then please, by all means, stay on the curb. As for me, I will look both ways and then cross the street, even if it is not at a crosswalk.
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