ATF admits to having 1 Billion gun records

[biku324]

This ^ is a key point.

Name any controversial or divisive issue (you can start with the Forum's list of banned topics ) and there will be organizations on either side of it, exploiting it for money and membership.

Advocacy groups NEVER disband because their goals have been reached...they simply move the goalposts. An organization founded to ban this-or-that, or to legalize this-or-that, moves on to a related topic once the ban or the legalization has been achieved.

This is almost precisely Michel's Iron Law of Oligarchy applied to firearms ownership as an issue.

 

[Beemerguy53]

...I spent over a year in Bosnia fairly recently - Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs weren't allowed to own firearms, but once genocide and religious warfare started, those engaged in the really ugly fighting simply killed individuals with weapons (nearly all military or para-military) any way they could and armed themselves...

I knew a Latvian immigrant (the father of a close friend) who was drafted into the Wehrmacht when the Germans invaded the Baltic States and expelled the Russians, and ended up spending several years during World War II fighting on the Russian front.

Back in the early 1990s, when the infamous Assault Weapons Ban was enacted, and a lot of gun owners were hoarding guns and ammunition, Harijs was shaking his head. He told me that in a war, the easiest thing in the world to find is a rifle; they are lying all over the battlefield, next to the bodies of dead soldiers...

 

[kbm6893]

I’ve never believed for one second that the information on a 4473 isn’t compiled. If it’s ever used as a tool to confiscate guns is a different matter. I know PA has a record of every handgun purchased in PA, which is why I would never sell a gun privately. If the cops know I have it, then I want to have proof I sold it lawfully.

 

[ladder13]

I’m with Handejector on this, period.

 

[H Richard]

I can tell you that back in the 70's, 80's and 90's the BATF would call local dealers and request info who bought a particular gun. Our LGS had a card file with cross references and could usually provide that info within less than a day.

My understanding that all 4473's sent in by closed dealers have been or will be scanned into the computer system for easy access.

 

[ACORN]

I’ve never believed for one second that the information on a 4473 isn’t compiled. If it’s ever used as a tool to confiscate guns is a different matter. I know PA has a record of every handgun purchased in PA, which is why I would never sell a gun privately. If the cops know I have it, then I want to have proof I sold it lawfully.

The Pa. State Police had a database and were told to destroy by the courts IIRC. They just ignored the court and carried on.
As far as confiscation, do you think the govt would only enlist ATF agents?
How many alphabet agency agents does Uncle Sam have? FBI, CIA, NSA, ATF, IRS etc. Not to mention our own armed forces. Don’t you think they’d be pressed into service should the need “arise”.
If not for possible confiscation, why would they need a database?
All the govt would need to do is play hardball with a handful. Many of the rest would voluntarily give up their arms. The hard cases would be dealt with accordingly.

 

[biku324]

There were 132,000 federal officers total as of 2016 - they already have things to do. There are 1.7 million in all of the Armed Forces, including Guard and Reserves.

Machine guns and destructive devices have been registered since the 1930s. Following the 'they want our guns' logic, if the Feds wanted to confiscate those, they're 90 years late.

Federal Law Enforcement
Department/branch Number Percent

Total 132,110 100%
Department of Homeland Security 62,125 47.0
Department of Justice 43,666 33.1
Other executive branch agencies 15,414 11.7
Independent agencies 4,943 3.7
Judicial branch 4,141 3.1
Legislative branch 1,821 1.4
Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Census of Federal Law Enforcement
Officers, 2016.

 

[Racer X]

All 4473's are done electronically now. Fill out and hit the complete button and ZOOM to the atf.

My last 3 transfers were on paper 4473s. Small FFLs.

 

[moosedog]

Disarming would be done like it has been in the UK. Legislated out slowly by gun type, caliber, round capacity, taxes, storage laws etc.
Most people will end up turning them in.
And with the lists, they will know who didn't turn them in.

 

[M29since14]

…I should do a Freedom of Information Act request for all the guns I’ve had over the years. I bet its more than I think.

GREAT IDEA. We should all get together and do that - simultaneously.

 

[biku324]

Disarming would be done like it has been in the UK. Legislated out slowly by gun type, caliber, round capacity, taxes, storage laws etc.
Most people will end up turning them in.
And with the lists, they will know who didn't turn them in.

They first started regulating arms in 1689. So I guess if the UK is the example, we can be limited to rifles and shotguns by 2235 AD or so.

 

[kbm6893]

I'll worry about confiscation if that day ever comes. For now, there are more urgent things to focus my attention on. In the last year, I've lost a good friend to cancer, and another one barely survived Covid, and he has a very long road ahead of him. Still in rehab three months later and I doubt he's ever coming back to work. I just can't get too worked up about gun confiscation. If the day ever comes, I'll decide how I wish to proceed.

 

[flintsghost]

As I recall, when I gave up my FFL, they didn't want the 4473's, just the bound book that I had recorded them all in. Also when a background check is run, at least here in Colorado, the actual firearm is not listed on the background application that is done on line. Only the type. So BATF would still have to go to each dealer and collect the 4473's or bound books and then enter the information to find a weapon. In the case of states where a drect transfer can be done without a background among civilians there will be a lot of firearms they can't find or don't know where they are.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Ever watch the movie Red Dawn?

 

[biku324]

Sure - it was fun, and utterly made-up with no relationship to anything other than entertainment.

One of my old agencies helped with traffic control, etc., on the original movie. We inherited some of their prop weapons - they were fun at the range, but not particularly useful.

 

[steelslaver]

I have done Zero electronic 4473. A dealer has not even called on me for a purchase since 2010 when I move back to Montana and got my CWP. The guy who has done most of my transfers has been called by the ATF once about some guns a guy who lost it has purchased.

I guarantee you neither the local sheriff is not going to help confiscate guns and our state patrol major function is highway safety and they wouldn't want the job either.

Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho have 322,596 rugged and isolated sq miles populated by almost 3 million people and most of them will not willingly give up their guns.

Afghanistan has 252,971 sq miles. The US military spent 20 years and 8 billion dollars there and never came close to disarming the country.

You figure it out

 

[biku324]

Like I said, we can't even find all of our kids.

Only laws that most folks agree to voluntarily comply with work in a democratic society.

 

[llowry61]

I agree with the concept of law-abiding citizens being intimidated into submission. It happens every day in today's world. With an amendment before the 2nd.

Didn't someone say something about history and being doomed to repeat something. Sorry, I forget what it was.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Like my friend from NM, I mailed my paper 4473s to the ATF when my dalliance with being an FFL ended.

I should do a Freedom of Information Act request for all the guns I’ve had over the years. I bet its more than I think.

Let me know if you an and how did you did it as I would like to do it as well, just to reminisce over all the ones that have passed through my fingers.