BMCM looks like we are gonna need springs

Bummer, though honestly I'm not that surprised. It seems that I've been getting the wrong parts directly from S&W more often these past few years. You should see some of the things they send me instead of grip pins...:D

BTW, did you ask for the recoil spring directly by part # (263310000)? That seems to be the most effective way to get the actual parts you're after, and to see if they are really discontinued or not.
 
FYI, I just spent some time on the phone with S&W. A very helpful CS person spent some time checking through the computer and finally told me that the CS45 recoil spring is listed as Discontinued/No Replacement. Not even any Back Order. Sigh.

BMCM, let us know what you decide on the CS45 recoil spring when you examine the other member's new CS45. The Wilson sourced flat spring has more coils (21) than the CS45 green spring (18), and the CS9 red spring (16), going by the ones I still have left and just checked. Dunno what the rating is on either spring. That 21 coil Wilson spring isn't so long that it causes spring stack in the CS40/45 frame? If not, that might be a neat solution, presuming it's not too heavy for the standard .45ACP (and a normal shooter's grip support).

I remember the days of going too heavy on .45 recoil springs in a couple different models and seeing brass ejected right back at my face. One of the guns was my old KP90DC. The guy at the Ruger plant chuckled and told me that consistently getting brass back in my face indicated I'd gone just a bit too heavy on the recoil spring experimentation. ;) Of course, he said that they'd also bumped up the rating on their P90 recoil springs by that time, and were no longer using the same spring they also used in the P89 (9mm).

BTW, I haven't forgotten about the Colt OM guide rod job (turning down to 0.26) or the new coil springs, to replace the older nested King's set. Just had too many things bumping it down lower on my list. :)
 
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Bummer, though honestly I'm not that surprised. It seems that I've been getting the wrong parts directly from S&W more often these past few years. You should see some of the things they send me instead of grip pins...:D

BTW, did you ask for the recoil spring directly by part # (263310000)? That seems to be the most effective way to get the actual parts you're after, and to see if they are really discontinued or not.

I have had many orders with S&W.

I never ask for a certain part for a specific model.

I ALWAYS provide part numbers (sometimes the CS reps ask ME what the part is and what it fits) and I've consequently NEVER received a wrong part from S&W.

John
 
I have had many orders with S&W.

I never ask for a certain part for a specific model.

I ALWAYS provide part numbers (sometimes the CS reps ask ME what the part is and what it fits) and I've consequently NEVER received a wrong part from S&W.

John

Agreed, I always have the part #'s listed and ready for the service rep when I call, and I let them know that as soon as we start talking. Most of them seem to really appreciate it.

For some reason though, 3913 grip pins seem to be confusing for whomever is actually finding and packing the parts, as I have received a variety of unknown screws and pins in place of them. I usually pay a bit more and just buy these from Midway nowadays, much easier and they always get it right.:D
 
I have had many orders with S&W.

I never ask for a certain part for a specific model.

I ALWAYS provide part numbers (sometimes the CS reps ask ME what the part is and what it fits) and I've consequently NEVER received a wrong part from S&W.

John

I have.

Even after repeatedly confirming the correct part number on orders.

Matter of fact, it just recently happened with some M&P 9/.40 mag springs. That was after double and then triple checking the correct part number and model application. :p Then, after finally getting the right springs shipped following the wrong ones shipped, they didn't get the quantity right. I had to call again and get them to ship more springs, like were listed on the original order (when they shipped the wrong springs).

It hasn't happened often, but it has happened throughout the years.

I suspect that now, with some of the parts coming out of their new facilities in other states and with their newer computer systems, it's not as easy for someone to walk over to Parts or Pistol or Revolver Repair to confirm the right part. ;)

Well, then there was that time they shipped half a dozen pistol barrels I'd ordered to the wrong agency. Luckily, it was a local agency and they realized the order had been intended for us. :) I figured that balanced out, though, since the company later shipped us a box of pistol magazines we'd not ordered (and which had been intended for another agency). I had to call back to figure out where the magazines had been intended to go.

One day I got a shipment of some mag springs I didn't recognize, by part number or the green paint. Turned out they were for the CS40, and I'd ordered more standard .45 mag springs.

You make enough orders over enough years, and you get surprised every once in a while.

S&W isn't the only gun company to mix up parts orders, either. BTDT. ;)
 
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FYI, I just spent some time on the phone with S&W. A very helpful CS person spent some time checking through the computer and finally told me that the CS45 recoil spring is listed as Discontinued/No Replacement. Not even any Back Order. Sigh.

...
Well, that really sucks! Thank you for confirming the status on these though Fastbolt. Really hoping that those Wilson Combat springs can be a viable solution, anxious to hear what Bill has to say after he tests them out.
 
Yeah the last couple times I was on the phone with S&W... Well the person on the other end left me with the distinct impression they had just stepped in dog poop. I gave them a part number from the parts list and was told they cannot look that up and demanded gun model number. A pointless waste of time calling them these days in my experience.

Anyway, I think I should have a CS45 here relatively soon to tinker with.

The other thing I'm gonna need is a new never installed 26331 spring. Just to measure, I'm not going to run it in a gun or wear it out, just measure it and whomever supplies one will get it back.

In the meantime, I've ordered a few of the Wilson Sentinel springs. And would offer the following... 4506 and 1006 use the same spring, likewise a 1066 and a 4566 same spring. And as I have had good results with the Sentinel spring in the CS40 platform re-chambered to 10mm Auto shooting WW 175gr Silvertip and Underwood 165gr ball, I think it reasonable to assume that spring will perform quite well in a CS45 with standard pressure 230gr ammo. Or, it may very well be better suited only for hotter loads such as RA45T+p. I'll try out various stuff once I have everything here and report.

Once I establish all the measurements I need, the plan is to speak with an engineer at ISMI and see what they might be able to cobble up for us and how much it's going to cost.

Cheers
Bill
 
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BMCM, let us know what you decide on the CS45 recoil spring when you examine the other member's new CS45. The Wilson sourced flat spring has more coils (21) than the CS45 green spring (18), and the CS9 red spring (16), going by the ones I still have left and just checked. Dunno what the rating is on either spring. That 21 coil Wilson spring isn't so long that it causes spring stack in the CS40/45 frame? If not, that might be a neat solution, presuming it's not too heavy for the standard .45ACP (and a normal shooter's grip support).

I remember the days of going too heavy on .45 recoil springs in a couple different models and seeing brass ejected right back at my face. One of the guns was my old KP90DC. The guy at the Ruger plant chuckled and told me that consistently getting brass back in my face indicated I'd gone just a bit too heavy on the recoil spring experimentation. ;) Of course, he said that they'd also bumped up the rating on their P90 recoil springs by that time, and were no longer using the same spring they also used in the P89 (9mm).

I've had discussions with a couple engineers about spring force/weights and whatnot both with SpringCo and ISMI. The point is when a given manufacturer claims a spring is rated for a certain weight, say 20# for example, well 20# where? Is it 20# at full compression? 20# at installed length breech closed, or breech open? In what firearm? What instrumentation was used to determine this? I've been told no two manufacturers use the same criteria for this establishing this data and some don't measure at all but merely calculate the rating based on wire gage, coil diameter, number of coils, modulus of elasticity of the particular steel, etc.

I set up one of my 4506 to use a 20# ISMI flatwire spring. A few folks have asked me why I cranked up the weight so much when the OEM spring is only 14# Well, it's because those two springs feel nearly the same when installed and the function in live fire is such that I can't really tell a difference. ISMI just uses different criteria to rate springs from what S&W uses to rate theirs.

That being said, a single example of anything does not an argument make. Just because my modded 4506 runs well with a 20# ISMI spring does not mean that some other 4506 might need a different rate. However, I think the 20# is a good starting place for that particular piece supported by my flawless results. Such that this particular 4506 spends more time on my belt than any other piece.


BTW, I haven't forgotten about the Colt OM guide rod job (turning down to 0.26) or the new coil springs, to replace the older nested King's set. Just had too many things bumping it down lower on my list. :)

I know only too well about priorities getting bumped lower on the list. No worries, send 'em over whenever you have opportunity.


Cheers
Bill
 
I've had discussions with a couple engineers about spring force/weights and whatnot both with SpringCo and ISMI. The point is when a given manufacturer claims a spring is rated for a certain weight, say 20# for example, well 20# where? Is it 20# at full compression? 20# at installed length breech closed, or breech open? In what firearm? What instrumentation was used to determine this? I've been told no two manufacturers use the same criteria for this establishing this data and some don't measure at all but merely calculate the rating based on wire gage, coil diameter, number of coils, modulus of elasticity of the particular steel, etc.

I set up one of my 4506 to use a 20# ISMI flatwire spring. A few folks have asked me why I cranked up the weight so much when the OEM spring is only 14# Well, it's because those two springs feel nearly the same when installed and the function in live fire is such that I can't really tell a difference. ISMI just uses different criteria to rate springs from what S&W uses to rate theirs.

That being said, a single example of anything does not an argument make. Just because my modded 4506 runs well with a 20# ISMI spring does not mean that some other 4506 might need a different rate. However, I think the 20# is a good starting place for that particular piece supported by my flawless results. Such that this particular 4506 spends more time on my belt than any other piece.




I know only too well about priorities getting bumped lower on the list. No worries, send 'em over whenever you have opportunity.


Cheers
Bill

No kidding, Bill. I've been told by one of the big spring makers that they measured their spring rates differently, and probably on different equipment, than one of the gun companies.

Folks, just for grins, I went out and grabbed the remaining recoil springs I have on hand for the CS45/40, CS9 and the 3913/908/69XX, and took these pics. You'll notice that some of them are more uniform in length than others. The CS45/40 springs are a bit "variable" in new (never-installed) free length. The CS9 springs are a lot closer, and the 3913 springs aren't too bad, either.

CS45 springs


CS9 springs


3913, etc springs


Bill, if you can't get any other CS45 springs, I could send you one to measure. Maybe the longest and the shortest? :) Might give me the chance to make time to dig out that OM and pull the guide rod. Looks like the heavy rains from the "Atmospheric river" they were predicting for us, and the returning high winds, didn't affect us quite as badly as they'd feared. The river behind the house is high and mud brown, but no debris flows in our immediate area. (Some folks not far away were evacuated.) One of the bigger redwood branches that landed next to our house is a little more than 10yds long, though. Nasty if it had hit. Having property in the forested mountains comes with constant costs. Sigh.
 
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Bill, if you can't get any other CS45 springs, I could send you one to measure. Maybe the longest and the shortest? :) Might give me the chance to make time to dig out that OM and pull the guide rod. Looks like the heavy rains from the "Atmospheric river" they were predicting for us, and the returning high winds, didn't affect us quite as badly as they'd feared. The river behind the house is high and mud brown, but no debris flows in our immediate area. (Some folks not far away were evacuated.) One of the bigger redwood branches that landed next to our house is a little more than 10yds long, though. Nasty if it had hit. Having property in the forested mountains comes with constant costs. Sigh.

That's great stuff, thanks for taking the time to post those images. And, I'll reach out if I need a spring or two.

On a like subject for the horde... Should I look into a CS9 replacement too while I'm at it? I do have a supply of those on hand so it wouldn't be much extra effort. Seems like a good idea. What say you folks?

Cheers
Bill
 
Yes please Master Chief! And thanks! :)

Thank you too Fastbolt! Much appreciated Gents! Regards 18DAI
 
The other thing I'm gonna need is a new never installed 26331 spring. Just to measure, I'm not going to run it in a gun or wear it out, just measure it and whomever supplies one will get it back.

Pretty sure I've got one out in the garage. Since it's 25 degrees out there now, is it alright if I check in the morning? :eek:
 
Flatwire -vs- round recoil springs

I set up one of my 4506 to use a 20# ISMI flatwire spring.
A few folks have asked me why I cranked up the weight so much when the OEM spring is only 14#.

Using my "homemade setup" (that I feel gives good relative readings), I measured the standard hardball S&W factory 4506 recoil spring (201610000) & it took 17# of force, at full compression (slide fully rearward), installed in my 4506 on a .290" guide rod.

I believe this one is called an 18# spring.

The wadcutter recoil spring (200710000) is called a 14# spring I believe.

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I didn't try any of the ISMI flatwire springs in the 4506 but I did in my 4586, installed on a .255" guide rod.

You didn't say whether you used a GL or GLC flatwire but I played with both in the 4586.

Oddly the GL-20 gave less full compressed force than a GLC-18 did, but a tad more initial force. (see attached)

I didn't have/try the standard (17#) S&W recoil spring (895240000) in the 4586 but I did try Wolff's 19# recoil spring (47919), for the 4586, in it as a comparison.

You can see none of the ISMI flatwire springs (18#, 20#, or 22#) even matched the 19# Wolff round spring even though they are said to be higher.

I got similar results in my 4013 (non-TSW) when comparing a GLC-22 to the S&W factory dual/nested recoil spring set.

Even though the flatwire is rated higher the factory round springs gave more force, 18# -vs- 20#, in the 4013.

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I would be surprised if the 20# flatwire spring even matched the S&W 18# recoil spring for force in the 4506, especially considering that it'd be on a 1/2" longer guide rod than with my test on the 4586.

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Wilson Combat 22# flat wire spring (10SEN22)

I added one of Wilson Combat's Sentinel flat wire recoil springs (10SEN22), that BMCM mentioned previously, to a recent order from them to see what they are like.

It is almost exactly 4.0" long out of the box & has (21) turns. The one end is closed (double coiled) but the opposite end is not & undoubtedly was cut-down from a longer spring.

Not having a CS40 or CS45, the next closest pistol I have is a 4013 (non-TSW) to try it in. It has a 3-1/2" bbl vs the 3-1/4" CS45's and both are a large frame compact.

Using the same test setup as I've used before I tried the W-C 10SEN22 (22#) recoil spring in the 4013 to compare it to my other prior recoil spring results.

Installed in the 4013 no stacking was found, the slide's rearward action stopped on the frame abutment, not the compressed spring.

It did not register as strong as the Sprinco dual/nested spring set I tested previously (which registered almost identically to a factory S&W dual/nested spring set; these springs are also used in the 4516 as well as the 4013).

And compared to an ISMI flat wire GLC-22 (22# strength & 31 coils) it was slightly less powerful.

After testing, the W-C 10SEN22 had a set spring length of 3.6"

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For the heck of it, I also tried it in my CS9 which is a medium frame & has a 3" bbl.

It measured several pounds stronger than the factory 16.5 turn flat wire spring but there was moderate stacking on this shorter guide rod; the slide was stopping on the compressed recoil spring, not the frame abutment.

No idea how many coil(s) would have to be cut-off to fix that but doing so would surely reduce it's strength accordingly.

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For clarification, the (A) and (C) condition readings in my tests below are fully a by-product of the recoil spring only; early partial force & full compressed force.

The (B) condition reading is early partial recoil spring force with the majority coming from the mainspring's force on the hammer against the slide.

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In the 3-1/4" bbl. CS45 slide the W-C 10SEN22 would likely be a little stronger than in the 3-1/2" 4013 (since the space is shorter) as long as there was no stacking, requiring the spring to be shortened.

Seeing that the CS40/CS45 use the same flat recoil spring (263310000) and that the their slide/barrel assemblies are shorter/lighter than the 4013 I tested in, I would think that the factory CS40/45 recoil springs would have to be stronger than the factory 4013 springs to do the same job?

If so then it would appear the the 10SEN22 spring may only pick up a few pounds of force in the CS45, essentially only matching that of the factory 4013 springs.

Not having a CS45 spring to compare to I have to wonder if the 10SEN22 would even match it's strength?

I'm sure BMCM can add more when he gets a CS45 spring in his hands to play with.

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Thanks for your efforts and looking into the Wilson Combat spring BLUEDOT37! Much appreciated! Regards 18DAI
 
Howdy Fastbolt, BMCM, BLUEDOT37 and 18DAI

I am very late to this game and somewhat out of touch.

I ran into a very similar problem with my Colt Officers ACP and a 1988 modified slide Kings Gun Works full length guide rod and barrel bushing.

that full length guide rod was designed for the dual spring set up. My go to spring place... Wolff does not make a spring compatible with the Kings. So I called ISMI who said to try their Officers flat wire and its sold at EGW.

the ISMI rep said those springs were rated to 15K.

anyway... when buying a few from EGW.... I recall seeing a 3" spring. Not sure if it will work. I mentioned to the ISMI rep that my Kings guide rod was .260" in diameter. He said the Officers spring ID is .263" and said would work.

I thought I would throw this out there.... hope it helps. If not, tell me to get back to the 1911 pages HA!

3" Flat Wire Recoil Spring ISMI 16 lb
 
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