BMCM looks like we are gonna need springs

[Fastbolt]

At your service my friend... 5C collet blocks and center finder standing by.

I'm told another one of those King's rod is on the way here from another of our members for modification as well.

1/16" or 0.0625 hole across 3 to 9 o'clock about 0.750 back from the front, chamfer applied both left & right.

Cheers
Bill

Damn, you're good. (Knew that. )

From the front of the King's rod to the front of the plug, at slide-lock, I get approx 1.734 inches of exposed rod.

Pushing the plug back far enough to just clear the rear of the spring tunnel (which was previously shortened a tad for the King's kit plug), I get 0.69-0.70" (rough gauging using punch length), so 0.750" ought to be perfect. Seen this before, huh?

Much obliged.

After I tighten the plunger staking and get an appointment scheduled to finish the range testing of the new mags at my former agency's range ... and have to get jury duty out of the way, after my second covid vaccine shot ... I'll get in touch with you and send the rod. Eventually I'll have a second rod that needs to be modified.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Yep, this is the right channel!

Here you go.

You knock them over & I'll straighten them up for you.

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[SW CQB 45]

Hey! Howdy! Haven't heard from you in a while. Lots of things have happened, huh? They sure have with me.

Thanks for posting the info about the KGW modified Colt Officers. Mine has been modified with the same kit, and it's been on my list of things to get around to addressing. (The damned list keeps getting longer the longer I'm retired, which doesn't seem intuitive. )


Anyway, my guide rod is also 0.260", but when I called IMSI I was told my rod couldn't be larger than 0.25" or their spring wouldn't work?? BMCM has graciously offered to turn my guide rod down whenever I can send it to him, but it would be great if it didn't need to be done. I like the info better that you got from the IMSI rep with whom you spoke. (Better than what I was told over the phone.)

You already try the IMSI spring to confirm it fits easily over the King's rod? You don't need to use the old buff King's provided as part of their kit?

That would be great. A buddy also has a tuned Officers with the King's kit, and we've both run out of the spare nested springs King's used to sell. The last bunch I ordered from them before they closed shop were 22lbs sets. They said they made 20lb & 22lb sets for the OM kits.

A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+A+

to BMCM for fast turnaround and very nice centered hole on my guide rod. He even made me some fancy take down tool.

I lubed my guide rod and the EGW Officers flat wire recoil spring went right on. While I have it together and it functions.... I might throw a WC recoil buff like the old Kings system came with and test fire.

I also had my frame checkered and round butted. All I need to find is a WCBP tactical ambi STS thumb safety. I dont want to pay new prices.... so I am looking for a used one.

I hope to test fire soon.

thanks again

BMCM

 

[SW CQB 45]

additional info

I sorta guessed on the hole placement on the guide rod.

I wanted .75" back from the pointy end (thanks for those words BMCM) based on measuring, but did not want to get to close to the end of the dust cover or behind/concealed by the dust cover to ease stabbing of the takedown tool.

another factor to consider was the length of the captured assembly for ease of installation. The spring plug is fitted to the slide and has to be clocked with the flat wire spring installed. I might have to deburr the end of the spring as it only allows rotation in one direction.

One thing I did not figure into my calculations was the placement of the slide on the frame to reinstall the slide stop but I dont think that would mattered to have an exposed guide rod hole.

I also installed a WC Shok Buff and it appears I have enough slide retraction for ejection and feeding to occur.

Captured recoil spring and almost a lined up notch for install of the slide stop.

and slide lock with no real effort

while I know this is not for a Smith.... I hope my direction help someone fit a recoil spring in their piece!!!

take care

 

[Fastbolt]

...

The spring plug is fitted to the slide and has to be clocked with the flat wire spring installed. I might have to deburr the end of the spring as it only allows rotation in one direction. ...

Do you mean you put the "open" end of the recoil facing front (like a GM recoil spring)?

I installed the new ISMI spring with the "open" end at the rear of the guide rod. That's how the nested King's springs were used all those years, so the "closed" ends could rest up front within the reverse plug, without risking the "open" end tips getting caught between the front end of the rod and the hole in the plug. Having the closed end facing front might make rotating and adjusting the plug a little easier (unless you mean the closed end has a burr on the end of the last winding).

This isn't a Gov Model where the open front coil of the spring turns and is caught by the stamped notch within the plug's notch.

I'm going without using a buff anymore, myself, now that this ISMI spring can be used. I only used the 10mm buff in the King's kit because it was part of the original King's kit. The King's sets of nested springs used to come in 20lb and 22lb ratings. I only found that out when I called once to order some extra sets and was surprised when the guy asked which ones I wanted. I didn't know there was more than 1 set. He said the 20lb springs were standard, but they offered a 22lb set as an option. (Presumably for heavier +P loads?) I went to the 22lb set after that ... just because.

I've seen too many little chewed up bits of buff material caught up in the recoil spring coils in different guns over time. Although, to be fair, the clear 10mm buffs sold by King's for their Officer's kits never seemed to be as "delicate" as the blue or black ones (other brands) I saw come apart in some guns, and listened to other guys complain about breaking down.

BMCM, that take-down tool is cool. Class.

 

[SW CQB 45]

Howdy Fastbolt

Yes on the recoil spring. The KGW recoil spring assembly was installed by them in 1988, I don't recall the instructions on spring orientation. And for the life of this, I installed the dual springs open end to the front. I will admit that sometimes the tail of the larger spring would stick out the hole of the "plug" and I would rotate the spring when installing.

I was not smart enough to turn the springs around.

I have had great luck with WC shok buffs. I keep an eye on them and when I feel they need to be replaced.... I chunk the old one.

I do not use them for duty or defensive carry.

I had went to a match with a 5" 1911 and grabbed the wrong box of ammo. It was old duty Ammo. PMC El Dorado Starfire 230. The 100 or so rounds i shot flattened the used WC shok buff like I had never seen before. It did not break down, it flattened and grew in diameter.

Recoil with Starfire was SNAPPY!

 

[BMCM]

For any of you Gents who might be wondering what I'm up to...

Collecting components...

I need to fab some parts for that crank handle thingy over there on the left. One aluminum fixture to hold the load cell on the moving slide and another fixture on the fixed handle end to hold a 6mm rod secured by one of those Kipp handles. Still need to wire up to load cell to a D-Sub9 connector so it can be plugged into the indicator.

I have another batch of parts on order from McMaster and some tooling from elsewhere pending. Once that stuff is here I can get started cobbling the thing together and mounted on one of those 7 x 23 inch tooling plates you see there under the pile of stuff.

Stay tuned.

Cheers
Bill

 

[18DAI]

Thank you BMCM! I still have 1 new spring left and around 1900 rounds left on the one in the gun. So no rush! Regards 18DAI

 

[tom 45]

Tercgen,
I was working on using Glock springs for the CS45 a while back.
Someone... I think it was BMCM went through a detailed explanation about changing a set of nested springs with a single spring for one of the guns he had. It was very easy to follow his procedure so I tried it on the CS45. I ordered a couple of Glock springs (G19 and G17). I got them in a couple of different spring weights (18# and 20# I think). That is where I ran into the problem that BMCM is working on now... How and Where is a spring weight measured?
Consequently that project got put on hold.
The Glock springs are the same coil size as the CS45 and I think you can get 2 springs by cutting a G17 spring in half...I haven't confirmed that yet. Or you can just shorten a G19 spring for one.
As soon as BMCM figures out the spring weight problem I can continue.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I want to follow up on most recent spring change to my Colt Officers ACP (45)

I know its not a SW but maybe the recoil spring could work for your application since my COACP was modified in 1988 with a part (full length guide rod) that no one makes springs for anymore.

I used the EGW Officers recoil spring listed in my previous post, BMCM custom drilled a perfect hole in my guide rod as the recoil spring was too long to fight/install into the slide. This hole in combination with a fancy pin captured the recoil spring and now its an easy install.

I was a little skeptical on this system as the slide was considerably easier to rack. My COACP slide grasping grooves are not very aggressive and requires additional pressure on the slide to get a positive rack with the original double recoil springs. I could be eating a sandwich and rack the slide now.... it feels considerably easy to rack.

I had not shot my COACP since around 2014/15. Fastbolt did remind me that the original set up for the Kings Guide Rod for the COACP had a shok buff.

I decided to use a Wilson Combat Shok Buff (blue) with the 1988 Kings Guide Rod Assembly and EGW Officers flat wire recoil spring.

Using Remmy 230 ball, I shot it. I recall recoil being snappy with this little shooter as this was my primary off duty carry in the 90s. However I was much younger, dumber and stronger back then. I have developed a pain shooting certain 1911s with thicker based thumb safety as it digs into the thin skin area of my right hand web area. See pic below and you will understand. My current set up in COACP which I had not shot in years has an Ed Brown thumb safety and it got me on the first shot. Its a thicker base and I could feel the snappy recoil digging into my hand web area.

I had two sets of mags, WC for Officers and Chip McCormick for Officers. The WC developed an issue where it would not feed and the nose of the bullet stuck where the feed ramp in the frame and the feed ramp in the barrel meet. However the Chip's with the spring type follower I am assuming held the nose higher and it ate every round. A gunsmith recently made note of my feed ramp cut and asked if this piece had any issues with feeding. I told him to the best of my knowledge... its a Colt factory original that was just polished. I need to invest in some more Chip's.

I ran about 50-60 rounds through the COACP and was very interested to see what the shok buff looked like. Must to my amazement.... it looked like I had just installed it. No marks, no cuts or no flattening.

hope this info helps others.

here is the back end of my COACP. look how wide/thick the thumb safety flat is. The next images will show you my pain.

Some time ago, a buddy let me shoot his Staccato. After one mag... I gave it back to him.

OUCH

 

[tom 45]

preliminary data

I've been doing some reading about springs and it appears as if spring 'rate' is a linear measurement in #/inch.
With that information and the description of BMCM's measurement fixture I decided to make an analog equivalent of his test fixture, since that is all I have on hand.

In the following photos you can see the setup.
In the foreground of one photo you can see the Glock spring.
With the CS45 spring I got the following numbers:
coils: 17
1st inch of travel: 10#
just short of bind: 16#

The two Glock springs that I have are:
17# 36 coils
20# 34 coils
It would appear that the Glock springs can be cut in half to give us 2 CS45 springs.

My next task will be to cut them in half and compare them to the CS45 spring.

I don't know why my second photo got turned sideways... Sorry.

 

[JohnHL]

Interesting test rig, Tom!

A couple of years ago I became curious about "spring rates".

Lacking the engineering sophistication of our more commercial/professional members, I took a piece of small diameter steel rod, threaded on one end, and slipped on a washer and nut.

I then slid the rod through the spring to be tested and then slid the rod through a hole in a piece of angle iron clamped in a vise.

Pulling on the bottom of the rod would compress the spring.

I hung old barbell weights on the bottom of the rod until the spring coils just touched.

My discovery was that on a new 17 lb. spring, it took approx. 17 lbs of weights to just bring the coils to touching.

The same was true on 14, 15, 18, 20, or 22 lb. springs and on every spring I tested, recoil springs or mainsprings.

I hope this can help someone.

Good luck on your search.

John

 

[tom 45]

John,
Yours is the setup that I started with when I realized that the spring scale I have measures on push also.
I got the longest 1/4" bolt that I had, drilled a 1/4 inch hole in the piece of wood. The bolt just fit through with the spring on it and I could put a nut on the back side to hold it all together.
The scale also has an indicator, the little red disk, that will hold a measurement so I don't have to push and watch at the same time. then it got easy.
I cut the 2 Glock springs this afternoon. I'll try to get some pictures and measurements tomorrow.

 

[tom 45]

got some time today to measure the cut springs.
CS45 spring:
17 coils
10# first inch
16# near bind

Glock 17 spring (cut in half)

17# spring
18 coils each
7.5# first inch
15# near bind

20# spring
17 coils each
8# first inch
16# near bind

This is with a sample size of 1 CS45 spring, 1 Glock 17 17# spring and 1 Glock 17 20# spring. As we can see from Fastbolt's picture (post #29) spring sizes are variable. Maybe weights are too. I think that the Glock 20# 1/2 spring wouldn't make a bad substitute for the factory spring in a pinch. I can't remember if there were other weight springs available for the Glock 17.
Maybe when BMCM gets his good spring measurement system together we can get some decent numbers, but for now this is a start.

 

[18DAI]

Any updates Master Chief? I've noticed some nervous nellies in a few CS threads lately.

Again, thank you for all your efforts on our behalf! Best regards, 18DAI

 

[BMCM]

Oh I haven't forgot...

Got a bunch of guns here for various degrees of work. Just trying to get caught up.

I have Jeppo's sample spring here and most everything on hand I need to build the test instrument, simply haven't been able to set aside the time to build the thing. I was mocking up some stuff a few days ago and working on the electronics...We'll have it in due time.

Cheers
Bill

 

[mpd671]

I think a quick fix off the shelf solution is the Wilson Combat #22 flatwire they sell for sub-compact 1911s

Flat-Wire Recoil Spring | Sentinel« | 22#-https://shopwilsoncombat.com/

That spring fits and is the same part I use when converting a CS40 to 10mm Auto but, Given that I've never personally run a CS45 fitted with this spring I cannot comment on function or reliability. Works ok for 10mm though.

Cheers
Bill

BMCM - This is intriguing. Do you think it will work in a CS40 that has not been through your shop? Will the loads I use make a difference one way or the other?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

LabRadar test results & recoil spring used

Do you think it will work in a CS40 that has not been through your shop?
Will the loads I use make a difference one way or the other?

Concerning the Wilson Combat 10SEN22 recoil spring, I mentioned in post #37 that it didn't appear to be as strong as alternatives, in my testing, but I don't have a CS40 to actually test it in.

How powerful your loads are matter. The recoil spring needs to match their power.

A recoil spring that's not strong enough will not only allow too much slide speed but can also affect the muzzle velocity of your ammo.

I was reminded of this when I was doing some LabRadar chrono tests recently on my 9x19 (+P), & (+P+), handloads in my Dan Wesson PM-9 using the standard 14# recoil spring.

The (+P+) load had less velocity than the previously tested (+P) load had.

Installing my 38 Super 16.5# recoil spring in it corrected that disparity by not allowing the barrel/slide to come unlocked prematurely, venting chamber pressure too early & dropping muzzle velocity.

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