I wouldn't mind some sort of requirements for gun training BEFORE you are allowed to take CCW class. As a poster above noted, a fair number of people taking CCW classes have never fired a gun before (and may not again after taking the class and qualifying), but they are walking around in public with a loaded gun. I don't want these people to try to "save" me if I'm ever around an active shooter situation.
Fatal Shooting During CCW Class
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MichiganScott
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Phil has the right idea. Warprints doesn't doesn't get it. The people that take a CCW course and never shoot a gun after qualifying will leave it in a bedroom drawer unloaded. Those that are serious about it will learn to use it.
Why don't we give an intelligence test before people vote or speak?
I would argue more harm has been done to America by voters than guns.
I would argue more harm has been done to America by voters than guns.
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pittpa
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Not to mention bad parenting. Definitely should have training and permitting there.
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Rastoff
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I hope you are right, but that has not been my experience. Here's a story I heard...
A younger guy hired on at a place and became friends with an older man who had already been there a number of years. They both enjoyed guns and believed in carrying for self-defense. The older man carried a Colt Commander and the younger guy always admired it. About 15 years later, the older man retired. As a memento of their time together, the older man gave his Colt to the younger guy; gun, holster and belt. The gun was in the holster and loaded.
Excited, the younger guy went to the range with his newly acquired gun. Since it was already loaded, he figured he'd just shoot that mag. Pointed at the target, pressed the trigger, click, but no bang. It wasn't until that point he decided to check the gun. He could barely get the magazine out. The slide was extremely stiff. The gun wasn't rusty, but had a ton of dirt in it. Once cleaned up it worked fine.
The younger guy came to the conclusion that the gun had not been out of the holster in the 15 or so years he had known the older guy. Apparently, he had just strapped it on every day and never cleaned it or shot it in all that time. Had he ever needed it, it probably wouldn't have worked.
Is the story true? Meh, it doesn't matter. The lesson is the same. The point is, just because someone has been carrying a while doesn't mean they know what they're doing. It doesn't mean they practice. It doesn't mean they're any more "serious" than any other shooter, even a new one. It only means they've been carrying a while.
MichiganScott
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It's obvious that neither character in the story was serious enough to learn how to use them, just serious enough to carry them.
Doug M.
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^ Semantics.^
Let's say that they are a huge danger because they give "ammo", pardon the pun, to our enemies. Those enemies, fortunately, are not really familiar enough with the topic, to be as dangerous as they could be. When idjits feed them, it does a ton of damage.
I was fortunate. My academy was heavily influenced by Cooper, because most of the full time faculty who did firearms stuff were graduates and part time staff at Gunsite. The part time instructors were also mostly Gunsite trained, or trained through several levels by our full time faculty. Proficient shooting was only part of the instruction. Even at the basic level, it was understood that it was about fighting, not a square range competition orientation. We did a good bit of classroom prep before we drew our pistols (about half the class had revolvers, this being 1989) and hit the range. No ammo in the classroom, ever. In addition, there was a heavy emphasis on gunhandling - that is, correct and sound handling of the firearms in terms of safely being prepared for a fight.
I don't get to shoot as much as I would like to, for lots of reasons. Other than a bit of plinking with my K38, I don't often shoot unless I have an instructor with me (even if it is a friend still serving with another agency as we plink). My training has carried me through a lot, and overcome my own lack of athletic prowess etc.
When I came to WA as a lateral, I saw some ... interesting things. I also see some other things with non-LE personnel that are ... head scratchers.
Let's say that they are a huge danger because they give "ammo", pardon the pun, to our enemies. Those enemies, fortunately, are not really familiar enough with the topic, to be as dangerous as they could be. When idjits feed them, it does a ton of damage.
I was fortunate. My academy was heavily influenced by Cooper, because most of the full time faculty who did firearms stuff were graduates and part time staff at Gunsite. The part time instructors were also mostly Gunsite trained, or trained through several levels by our full time faculty. Proficient shooting was only part of the instruction. Even at the basic level, it was understood that it was about fighting, not a square range competition orientation. We did a good bit of classroom prep before we drew our pistols (about half the class had revolvers, this being 1989) and hit the range. No ammo in the classroom, ever. In addition, there was a heavy emphasis on gunhandling - that is, correct and sound handling of the firearms in terms of safely being prepared for a fight.
I don't get to shoot as much as I would like to, for lots of reasons. Other than a bit of plinking with my K38, I don't often shoot unless I have an instructor with me (even if it is a friend still serving with another agency as we plink). My training has carried me through a lot, and overcome my own lack of athletic prowess etc.
When I came to WA as a lateral, I saw some ... interesting things. I also see some other things with non-LE personnel that are ... head scratchers.
speezack
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Just finished my recert carry class as a licensed bondsman and PI in Virginia...
I sometimes help with the range time and this week got to help a young lady who had never.... may I repeat... NEVER... had a firearm in her hands... she was obtaining her carry permit as a licensed bondsman... needless to say... I was very, very observant on her moves and constantly had to keep the weapon pointed down range and finger off the trigger... it was a very nerve racking experience that did turn out ok but I really did some serious instruction on safety... fact was, I didn't allow rounds in the weapon until the others had left the range and then I took a long slow instructional time to instill safety first... I think she came away with a much better understanding of the seriousness of carrying a firearm... fact is, I told her it would probably be best if she practiced with a trained range officer before she even considered carrying... I think she agreed.
I sometimes help with the range time and this week got to help a young lady who had never.... may I repeat... NEVER... had a firearm in her hands... she was obtaining her carry permit as a licensed bondsman... needless to say... I was very, very observant on her moves and constantly had to keep the weapon pointed down range and finger off the trigger... it was a very nerve racking experience that did turn out ok but I really did some serious instruction on safety... fact was, I didn't allow rounds in the weapon until the others had left the range and then I took a long slow instructional time to instill safety first... I think she came away with a much better understanding of the seriousness of carrying a firearm... fact is, I told her it would probably be best if she practiced with a trained range officer before she even considered carrying... I think she agreed.
ChattanoogaPhil
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As if the old man had no idea that a carry gun should be routinely inspected and cleaned, and the younger fellow had no idea that a newly acquired gun should be inspected prior to shooting? Of course they knew. They just didn't. This isn't a knowledge or skill issue. It's a discipline issue.
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MCorps0311
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Accidents do happen from time to time.
MichiganScott
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Negligence and accidents are two different occurrences with negligence happening way too often..
keith44spl
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Yes Sir,
I would like to add, that muzzle discipline goes a long way
in preventing serious bodily injury or death.
.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Right.
For example, how much expert knowledge and highly trained and practiced motor skills is required to simply leave a loaded gun holstered while carrying? It's the lack of discipline with the most basic rudimentary things requiring near zero knowledge and skills that usually cause the most grief.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
Neither is it an age or experience issue. It's a complacency issue. In the story, both parties had become complacent about gun maintenance and handling. I'm sure the younger of the two is better about it now.
Familiarity breeds complacency. As we become more comfortable with our firearms, specifically carrying our firearms, we tend to lose that "edge" of safety. It happens to all of us. Therefore, a reminder is always a good thing.
I have a set of rules I use when doing dry practice. I've posted them from time to time. Whenever I post them, there is always at least one who complains. It usually goes like this, "I don't need to follow [insert any safety rule you like] because I'm smart enough to [insert any action you like] before practicing." Whenever we think the most basic of safety rules doesn't apply to us, that's when the ND happens.
Even though you check the gun, it's wise to keep it pointed in a direction where no one will get hurt. Muzzle discipline is rule one. Had they followed this in the class, the guy wouldn't have been killed.
kbm6893
Member
Those who advocate for mandatory training are advocating for QUALITY mandated training. Not a few hours in a class, followed by 5 shots at paper. What is the passing rate of these courses? I would bet nearly 100%. Says something, doesn't it?
Look, if some idiot who doesn't know what he is doing shoots himself, I don't really care. But much more often, it's an innocent person. And while we have the right to keep and bear arms, those who do have the RESPONSIBILITY to be adequately trained in their use. And judging by the people I see handling weapons, many (if not most) aren't up to the task. Members of a gun forum are not representatives of the majority of gun owners. Many people buy a gun, shoot it once or twice, and stick it in a sock drawer.
Look, if some idiot who doesn't know what he is doing shoots himself, I don't really care. But much more often, it's an innocent person. And while we have the right to keep and bear arms, those who do have the RESPONSIBILITY to be adequately trained in their use. And judging by the people I see handling weapons, many (if not most) aren't up to the task. Members of a gun forum are not representatives of the majority of gun owners. Many people buy a gun, shoot it once or twice, and stick it in a sock drawer.
ChattanoogaPhil
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From what little there is to read in the story, a loaded gun was being handled in a classroom setting. That's the root of the safety issue.
Sure, we can discuss all the gun handling safety rules that coulda-woulda-shoulda prevented this tragedy. But the root of the problem is that the gun was being handled at all in a classroom setting. Address the root of the safety issue and all the other coulda-would-shoulda criteria become glaringly irrelevant. That's how tragedies of this nature are prevented.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Are you advocating for government mandated "quality" training?
If so, tell us what you think this mandatory training should be and "passing rate".
I used to belong to a range just north of the big city. I saw plenty of unsafe gun handling, especially by those who allegedly get volumes of training.
Being swept left and right, people fiddling with their guns while the range was cold, a guy calling the range hot when his 10 yo kid was still downrange, etc etc.
Oh, they loved to let you know where they worked.
Almost forgot the time I got swept with an AR, within 10 feet, by a guy in uniform at a gun shop. My first and last visit to that shop.
Being swept left and right, people fiddling with their guns while the range was cold, a guy calling the range hot when his 10 yo kid was still downrange, etc etc.
Oh, they loved to let you know where they worked.
Almost forgot the time I got swept with an AR, within 10 feet, by a guy in uniform at a gun shop. My first and last visit to that shop.
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kbm6893
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I'm not saying the government has to be involved at all. Private training is fine. The NRA offers a course. What should the passing rate be? 100%. And I'm talking about a REAL 100%, not the current "pay your money and you pass" that happens in most courses. Not a perfect score on the target. Proficient is fine. But unsafe gun handling should be an immediate fail. Come back in six months and try again. Might make people sit up and pay attention at these courses.
Your right to own and carry a weapon doesn't trump somebody else's right to live. And in most situations, other than extreme gross negligence, nobody even gets charged. How much you want to bet that the idiot with the loaded gun in that class doesn't get charged? Just chalk it up to "oops. I'm really sorry!" Bet you wouldn't feel that way if somebody you love was killed because of some idiot who screwed up. Or do you expect me to believe that you would just say "well, accidents like this are the price we pray for freedom!"?
And Ladder, your subtle swipe at law enforcement is always noticed. Yes, some cops are unsafe with their weapons. That's because of the minimal training they get, due to departments not wanting to take guys off patrol for a day at the the range. A dumbing down of training and candidates is happening everywhere. I'm sure you've noticed the dregs being hired by the FDNY.
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MichiganScott
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Unless the government mandates it no one will attend.
If you want to buy yourself a load of heartache, flunk or kick out a student from a class that they have paid for. You probably won't do it more that a couple of times.
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