Model 19-3 stainless?

[glev]

Hi,
I may have a model 19-3 in stainless though I understand that shouldn't be possible. My father bought it in the early 80's. It was made in '76. He gave it to me several years ago. Recently, I decided to do a little research on the gun and that's when I realized I may have something special. It has all the correct marks on the grip frame, swing arm, and frame. There are several inspector marks on the grip frame (more than I've seen on any similar revolvers). We always thought it was brushed stainless but I now understand it was only supposed to be made in bright nickel or blue. I spoke to the historian at S&W and he said it must have been refinished. I've had several experienced collectors look at it and they all agree that it is stainless and all parts are original. The final test may involve testing by a metallurgist just to confirm what the other collectors have said.
After that long intro, here's my question for everyone. Does anyone have any ideas on how/why a 19-3 would have been manufactured in stainless? Also, how rare/valuable could this be? Finally, is there any possible way to refinish a gun so perfectly that it would be impossible for an expert to visibly be fooled?

 

[BruceM]

As is usually the case with these kinds of questions, the gun has an aftermarket finish such as hard chrome. The Model 19 is a carbon steel gun with Smith & Wesson's equivalent in stainless steel being the Model 66.



Bruce

 

[HAWKEYE10]

I would just do a magnet test to see if it's SS. A magnet
will not stick to SS. I think it was mismarked from S&W.
Looks like you have a M66 thats marked M19. "NEAT" Don

 

[VM]

I'll agree with Roy

There have many guns hard chromed for years by many different companies that can make them look factory original.

I can change out a hamer and trigger in about ten minutes (and I'm not a gunsmith) so that could have been done at same time as the refinish

 

[MakeMyNight]

Have You removed the sideplate, and viewed the revolver's frame internally?

 

[MakeMyNight]

I would just do a magnet test to see if it's SS. A magnet
will not stick to SS. I think it was mismarked from S&W.
Looks like you have a M66 thats marked M19. "NEAT" Don

Actually that's not so.
Magnets do stick to stainless revolvers.

Gun making grades of Stainless Steel are differently formulated than stainless flatware, or other stainless steels. It has to do with machining properties, and strength.

 

[lpd625]

stainless steel

The grade of stainless that Smith+Wesson uses does indeed attract to a magnet so that is not a valid indicator.

 

[glev]

I have removed the sideplates and had a long time collector look at it. He said he would bet his best gun that at the least the gun has it's original finish. It does look exactly like a model 66, but it is clearly marked 19-3. It just doesn't seem logical for someone to purchase the gun new and immediately spend a fortune refinishing it to such a high standard that it's not detectable. (It has been in our possession for all but the first 4 or 5 yrs.) Also it is a brushed finish not bright. All 19-3 were made in bright finish. Furthermore, there are no scratches are other signs of an "applied" finish except on the wooden grips. (I still have them but removed them to avoid any additional scratches.)

 

[VM]

It just doesn't seem logical for someone to purchase the gun new and immediately spend a fortune refinishing it to such a high standard that it's not detectable. (It has been in our possession for all but the first 4 or 5 yrs.)

glev - I've seen a guy buy a brand new truck for $30,000 and bring it home and pull all the suspension out, spend another 30-40K for new set-up and then use it for offroad racing. People spend money in various ways

Your 19-3 could have been carried by a Police officer and he wanted a special finish for his Duty gun

You might as well spend the $50 and get a factory letter and then all the speculation will lay to rest.

 

[Doc44]

Assuming it is stainless and not a refinish, the gun is probably a Model 66 that was mis-stamped 19-3. I have heard of this happening before and incorrect stampings of model number by S&W are well documented.

In addition, if the parts are stainless, there should be an S stamped in the ejector rod shroud and on the left side of the grip frame, and a V stamped on the rear surface of the cylinder.

Bill

 

[Art Doc]

I think you are correct. You have the only stainless 19-3 ever produced. I would immediately list it on GunBroker with a reserve of $1,000,000 as befitting this one of a kind gun.

 

[glev]

Bill,
Thanks for the info. I can check for those stamps right now. I'll post an update in a few minutes. If it is mislabeled and actually a 66, does that add to the value and perfectibility of the gun? (I have no interest in selling, just curious.) Another theory proposed by a local collector is that it may have been a prototype that made it's way out of the factory.

 

[haifabuddy]

That SaxP is one of the most knowledgeable guys on the forum. However, I must differ with him here. I think the figure he gave is a bit too high. Try $990,000.03, it will sell faster.

 

[CT Smith Fan]

I agree with VM spend the $50 on a LOA from Roy Jinks.A carbon steel gun will always be carbon steel no matter how it is re-finished and a Stainless steel gun will always be stainless steel.If it has been mis-stamped you'll need the documentation anyway.

 

[Doc44]

glev...If the revolver is incorrectly stamped, it does not add to the collector value. However, that being said, there may be some collectors who are interested in mis-stamped guns and may pay a small premium.

Concerning the prototype possibility, the revolver would not be a prototype Model 66 as the first run of this model to test the new tooling was made in 1970 (100 guns were made). Prototypes would have pre-dated this run (if any were made). The gun would not be a prototype Model 19-3 in stainless, since the Model 66 was in full production long before 1976.

Bill

 

[flagman1776]

I'm betting on a premium aftermarket refinish. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Just not a collector's gun. Still a fine revolver. Enjoy.
Russ

 

[tom turner]

Assuming it is stainless and not a refinish, the gun is probably a Model 66 that was mis-stamped 19-3. I have heard of this happening before and incorrect stampings of model number by S&W are well documented.

In addition, if the parts are stainless, there should be an S stamped in the ejector rod shroud and on the left side of the grip frame, and a V stamped on the rear surface of the cylinder.

Bill

I'm betting he will not find the stainless stamp identifiers you mentioned, nor will he find an "N" stamped on the left of the grip frames as the nickle guns all had.

I'm betting it is a refinished 19-3. Nice looking gun though . . . sort of like a new stainless 66 though.

Also, the trigger and hammer are the wrong color.

 

[glev]

More detail-thanks for all the opinions so far

I attached more detailed photos of the markings on the grips and cylinder arm. I also checked for the stamps on the cylinder and ejector. On the back of the ejector it's very difficult to see. With the small magnifying glass I have it appears to be stamped with the same number that's on the swing arm. There is an additional letter or two but I can't clearly see them without better magnification. On the back of the cylinder there is a clear mark I just don't know what to make of it. The mark looks like an oddly shaped 5 and back-words S. Any information anyone can add would be appreciated. A few additional questions: Why would it have all of the correct markings if the gun is a mistake or other odd release? Also the machining marks are very clear inside the frame and grip. None of the blued or nickel guns I have show such clear machining because the finish hides it. Last, there is no discoloration or corrosion in any of the small scratches. (In my limited experience, a gun that has had a finish of any kind must be kept oiled and extra care taken to avoid this. I have not had the same problem with this gun at any time and it has been used and carried extensively.)

 

[Doc44]

tom turner....Why do you state the hammer and trigger are the wrong color? Just curious.

glev...In the second photo, is the mainspring blued or stainless? I checked my Model 66 and a 629, and both mainsprings are stainless.

Bill

 

[Doc44]

The five digit number on the yoke and the frame is the assembly number that is used to keep fitted parts together. The large 3 indicates the gun is a K-frame in .357 Magnum caliber. The other marks are fitter and inspector marks that are standard on most guns. No help in determining if the gun is a 19 or a 66. Machining marks do appear on blued and nickel revolvers on the grip frame and this part is not polished like the rest of the gun.

A factory letter will tell you if the gun shipped as a 19-3 or 66, but if it letters as a 19, it still will not answer the question about whether the gun is made of SS or refinished in something like armaloy or metalife. The V on the rear of the cylinder should be easily read, as it the S in the ejector rod shroud. Without those clear markings, the mystery continues.

Bill

 

[glev]

Bill,
I'm not sure what the finish (if any) is on the main spring. It's not stainless like the rest of the grip but it's not the typical "blued" color of any other gun finish I've seen. Like the rest of the gun, there's no sign of corrosion or rust but it's brown like the color of chocolate.

 

[glev]

I've got a deal for you...

I think you are correct. You have the only stainless 19-3 ever produced. I would immediately list it on GunBroker with a reserve of $1,000,000 as befitting this one of a kind gun.

If you're interested I'll let it go for 600,000 and leave you with a 400,000 profit.

 

[pharmer]

Looks like Armolloy (sp?). About the time that gun was new, it was THE finish for duty guns. I had a buddy in the NJSP with that exact finish on his duty weapon. Joe

 

[shawn mccarver]

The revolver pictured is not stainless steel. It has been refinished to some sort of bead blasted nickel or chrome finish. Since it now has zero percent of its original finish, it is only valuable as a shooter, so start shooting. You may want to have it gone over by S&W to make sure that the action parts and springs were not messed with during the refinish as some sort of action/finish package.

 

[HAWKEYE10]

Actually that's not so.
Magnets do stick to stainless revolvers.

Gun making grades of Stainless Steel are differently formulated than stainless flatware, or other stainless steels. It has to do with machining properties, and strength.

You are right. I just tested my SS M66 and the magnet
stuck. It's been a good day, I learned something. Thanks Don

 

[w9kcj]

Model 19

I had 19 just like it. It was a service revolver that had been plated.

 

[glev]

Update and request

The revolver pictured is not stainless steel. It has been refinished to some sort of bead blasted nickel or chrome finish. Since it now has zero percent of its original finish, it is only valuable as a shooter, so start shooting. You may want to have it gone over by S&W to make sure that the action parts and springs were not messed with during the refinish as some sort of action/finish package.

First thank you to the 99% that posted with an open mind and obvious desire to help. I hope you will all check back as I continue to add more details and follow the advice you give. i enjoy investigating all of the possibilities people have suggested.

To the small number of members, (Mr MCarver for example) that have some "6th sense" ability to state as "fact" without explanation that they have the answer. It's quite a feat to dismiss the gun as not stainless or proclaim it's refinished. All without actually seeing the gun, I understand it's a possibility, but all evidence refutes any refinishing and points to the gun being stainless. I can say this with some confidence because I and several others that have actually inspected the gun at length strongly agree that it is stainless and is marked Model 19-3.

Last night I disassembled the revolver further than I ever have before. I enlisted the help and magnification equipment of a friend that's a dentist. We (actually the dentist) found some very odd markings etched into the gun. The same two numbers were etched into every part of the gun. It is not a stamp and appears to be hand engraved, The two digits are so small in some places, (on the shaft of the grip set screw, inside each catch on the outside of the cylinder, and on some other tiny pins and parts) that they can only be seen with magnification. The etching is deeper than any finish (including armolly) in most places and would have been subject to corrosion. We found none.

Anybody have any ideas? If it's possibly a mis-stamped 66, what are the differences between the 19 and 66 other than stainless? If I knew, I could consider that the most likely possibility or (even better) rule that out completely, which would make it more of a mystery.

 

[shawn mccarver]

To the small number of members, (Mr MCarver for example) that have some "6th sense" ability to state as "fact" without explanation that they have the answer.

I am sorry if I offended you with my rather matter-of-fact statement about your Model 19-3, which you indicated was made in 1976. I could be wrong, but do not think so. I think it unlikely that your revolver is a mismarked Model 66.

One reason, obvious from your pictures, is the lack of the red ramp front sight. Not definitive, for sure, but a factor I considered. The rear sight assembly appears to be blue or black, but that would have been easy - that part was simply not refinished at the time, betting the revolver was originally blue.

Model 66s made in 1976 had red ramps, and I do not see, on your pictures, the red ramp, nor do I see the dovetail cut where one might have been. Again, we are all guessing, and we are all trying to help. I sincerely apologize if I offended you.

I hope your revolver is rare, as it is nice to find a rare one from time to time, but, and I mean this in the nicest way, the evidence shown so far, does not lead me to the belief that it is actually a Model 66.

I will be more than happy to admit, in advance, that I am wrong, if the correct markings for stainless are shown as Bill suggested, or if a factory letter says it is.

Another suggestion is to call S&W and ask customer service to enter you serial number in the computer to see what they can tell you about it.

Good luck, and my sincere apologies. Again, I was merely trying to be matter-of-fact, and was not trying to offend you or your revolver.

Shawn

 

[VM]

We (actually the dentist) found some very odd markings etched into the gun. The same two numbers were etched into every part of the gun. It is not a stamp and appears to be hand engraved, The two digits are so small in some places, (on the shaft of the grip set screw, inside each catch on the outside of the cylinder, and on some other tiny pins and parts) that they can only be seen with magnification.

Glev - are you going to share what the marking are?

I wouldn't be so hard on Mr. mccarver.......I made up my mind real quick from your original post when you stated :

"I spoke to the historian at S&W and he said it must have been refinished"

If you do a little research, you'll find that Roy Jinks is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to S&W's

 

[bdGreen]

Last night I disassembled the revolver further than I ever have before. I enlisted the help and magnification equipment of a friend that's a dentist. We (actually the dentist) found some very odd markings etched into the gun. The same two numbers were etched into every part of the gun. It is not a stamp and appears to be hand engraved, The two digits are so small in some places, (on the shaft of the grip set screw, inside each catch on the outside of the cylinder, and on some other tiny pins and parts) that they can only be seen with magnification. The etching is deeper than any finish (including armolly) in most places and would have been subject to corrosion. We found none.


I believe that this could indicate a batch plating and using the id's to put all the body parts back to the same gun.

What think you?

bdGreen