Model 19-3 stainless?

[glev]

To all those who are upset with me, I have spoken to Roy my self and my Dad talked to him two days ago. He said that a letter would not be helpful because it would not include a conclusive answer to the "mystery." Roy was very personable and looked up the gun by serial number. He was able to give us the manufactur date and details on some of the factory options, including target trigger and sights but he did not find info on the original finish. This seems strange to me. His opinion was that we should have the gun professionally tested to determine if it is some type of refinishing or possibly (but unlikely) a custom gun. He also said that if it is stainless, he would be interested in seeing the gun because it would be quite special. I have also consulted with additional collectors. Almost all offered one of two possibilities. One, that it is a mislabeled Model 66 that came from the factory with a few of the 100's of options on special edition runs.(that would explain the trigger and hammer comments.) The other is that it may be a prototype Model 19 in stainless, possibly testing a different grade of stainless. Not one person that has examined the gun thinks it has been refinished and the serial numbers and markings match throughout.
I meant no disrespect to those that took offense to my posts and I appreciate everyone that offered suggestions of any kind. I honestly researched every one of the posts that provided specific possibilities and actionable things to study or look at on the gun. I would like to offer my sincere thanks and appreciation to everyone that offered help. I see no reason to apologize to the 1 or 2 people that posted comments that served no purpose other than to tell me I have nothing worthwhile or the other few that chimed in. I never said the gun was a "one of a kind" or "find of a lifetime" and I simply wanted help trying to identify what I have. If I offended any but the small majority I apologize. To the 1 or 2 I referred to earlier, consider yourselves offended if that makes you feel better.

 

[Doc44]

glev...A factory letter should tell you the type of finish the 19-3 was shipped with, as when a letter request is made, Roy looks up the serial number to find out when and where the gun was shipped. He then contacts the Connecticut Valley Historical Museum in Springfield, MA where the factory invoices are kep and staff there find the invoice for that particular gun. It should indicate the type of finish the gun was shipped with, barrel length, and any special features that were an extra charge.

If you call Roy and talk with him, he does not have information about finish at his fingertips and must contact the museum to get it.

I would still letter the gun as you may be surprised what it tells you.

Bill

 

[ENGINE18]

Welcome to the friendly confines of the S&W Forum. Some here, including me, should probably quit taking themselves so seriously! Geez, it sounds like the weigh-in at a bass fishing tournament!

 

[CT Smith Fan]

Glev,If you follow Bill's instructions,get the gun correctly lettered and let us know the results, we will be interested in the information that he provides.If you want an example of the detail that Roy can go into check out Wimer's Collectable Firearms and read some of the letters that he has for the guns he sells.Just my 2 cents.

 

[glev]

Bill,

Once again, thank you for your input. You have been extremely helpful and your posts are always informative. I will follow your suggestion and get the letter. I will always follow direction from people like you that are obviously more knowledgeable than I. Whatever the outcome, suggestions and actions that may help determine what I have (regardless of whether it is just a sentimental attachment to a fine shooting revolver or a rare find) are the reason I came to this forum.
Thanks again

 

[glev]

One additional thought, both my Dad and I spoke to Roy and I can't figure out why he would he has dissuaded us from getting the letter. He has been courteous and seems to be a sincere person. It just seems odd. I guess that just adds to the fun of finding an answer. I'll keep the post updated with my findings.

 

[acl864]

One additional thought, both my Dad and I spoke to Roy and I can't figure out why he would he has dissuaded us from getting the letter. He has been courteous and seems to be a sincere person. It just seems odd. I guess that just adds to the fun of finding an answer. I'll keep the post updated with my findings.

I think this might be because he is doubtful the letter will give you the answer you are looking for. If he thought there were even a slight chance that the letter would indicate that the gun was a 19-3 shipped with a SS frame with factory authorization he would've encouraged you to letter the gun. JMHO.

 

[Sgt 127]

I honestly researched every one of the posts that provided specific possibilities and actionable things to study or look at on the gun.

Like this one?

Just saw this and as we used to have many gun s done by Ron Mahovsky through our shop ( and two of my own personal model 19s were done as such (Metalife SS) the 'batch ' numbers cited by bdgreen comes to mind, as many shops did just that. but the proof in th pudding would be quite easy to find out and how we do it is to scribe a mark ( line) on the grip frame flat , out of sight no less, and apply a drop of cold blue, the underlying metal will or will NOT turn 'blue'...if its stainless, (all the way through & through) no way will it "turn blue",but my bet is it will, see this all too often, and makes the crowd go nuts figuring out "why" it looks so much like stainless and its NOT....good luck, and as noted above, even if it was "mismarked" as to a model number ( also happens from time to time) only a slight premium .......all of this would have taken a couple of minutes to" solve your riddle...."

I meant no disrespect to those that took offense to my posts and I appreciate everyone that offered suggestions of any kind.

Really?

Dan,
Once again, it must be a sad person ( probably very qualified though) that would rather insinuate brilliance at someone's expense instead of offering to explain how to perform such a simple and fast test. I wonder if being of such lofty intellect makes a person agitated and condescending?

Did you actually READ his post before twisting off on him? Did you do the test he suggested?

 

[glev]

New Grips

Thank You borntoraisehogs!

 

[ARMinSC]

So, is it stainless?

 

[katanski]

19-3 finish

glev,
I also have a 19-3, Serial # K7923XX with a unique finish. It is not as bright a nickel and not as dull a SS. I have sent a LOA to S&W to find out what finish the gun was shipped from the factory with.

 

[AKsRule]

To all those who are upset with me, I have spoken to Roy my self and my Dad talked to him two days ago. He said that a letter would not be helpful because it would not include a conclusive answer to the "mystery." Roy was very personable and looked up the gun by serial number. He was able to give us the manufactur date and details on some of the factory options, including target trigger and sights but he did not find info on the original finish. This seems strange to me. His opinion was that we should have the gun professionally tested to determine if it is some type of refinishing or possibly (but unlikely) a custom gun. He also said that if it is stainless, he would be interested in seeing the gun because it would be quite special.

So -

Mr. Jinks told you the mfg. date.

Going by the FACTORY RECORDS he thinks it could
be a refinish.

If it is STAINLESS he said it would be "special"

Your low quality pictures are not definitive.

So without having the frame metal tested by a professional
no one will ever really know.

Bummer.

 

[18DAI]

katanski, please let us know what you find out from S&W.

I have a 4" 19-3, serial 2K 900XX that looks identical to yours. Not stainless, but not nickel either and looks flawless. I'm curious as to what you find out. Regards 18DAI

 

[snw19_357]

glev,
I also have a 19-3, Serial # K7923XX with a unique finish...

I'd like to hear what you find out too. That's a VERY low serial number for a 19-3.

 

[Sgt 127]

There is really no need to run one of these guns by the guys at NASA to determine what its made out of. As has been suggested, scratch through the finish and see if it turns blue when you put a drop of cold blue on the gun.

I would use a little diamond burr on a Dremal tool. Under the grips, cut a little tiny divot in the frame. Just a couple thousands deep. If you can see a divot, its deep enogh. Put a drop of cold blue in the divot. if it turns blue, the gun is carbon steel that has been plated, almost assuredly it has been hard chromed.

Armoly in Fort Worth did TONS of cop guns around here. Stainless guns were very hard to find. Take your 19 and get it plated, it looks and acts just like a stainless gun. The color is almost an exact match for stainless.

There is the off chance it was mismarked at the factory. Possibly. Slight premium if someone wants a mismarked gun. I wouldn't pay extra for it, others might.

I don't think a letter will help either. If it was marked as a 19 but, was in realty a 66, I suppose Smith would still think its shipped as a 19 and, thier records would indicate that.

 

[jtpur]

I had a model 36 once in blue finish. It got some water on it from rain, and showed a couple of rust spots. I sent it back and had the factory refinish it to stainless. I lived in South Florida and the humidity was horrible. The factory sent it back and every one thought it was the model 60...but it wasnt. The factory did not stamp the frame with a refinish mark...so it was done at the factory. I wonder if maybe yours might have had the same fate.,

 

[Sgt 127]

I had a model 36 once in blue finish. It got some water on it from rain, and showed a couple of rust spots. I sent it back and had the factory refinish it to stainless.

Just to clarify, a gun cannot be "refinished" to stainless. The designation "Stainless steel" indicates that the base metal that the part is made of is a steel that is highly resistant to rust. Your model 36 was made of carbon steel, that is prone to rust, and was plated with something to protect the steel from water getting to it and causing it to rust. Carbon steel cannot be changed into stainless steel.

(Well, I suppose it could be but, it would involve melting the entire gun down and changing its properties before being converted back into a gun again.)

Hard chrome is an exceptionally tough and durable finish that looks, for all the world, like stainless steel and, shares the same external properties. Actually, its MORE impervious to corrosion than stainless steel.

 

[Dregg]

Very interesting thread. Would like to find out the outcome.

 

[gearchecker]

Stainless markings - more info

Here are the markings mentioned earlier for the Stainless proof.
These are the markings on my Model 66-3 Ser# BPB099x

In the ejector housing below the barrel with the cylinder swung out.

On the rear of the cylinder (Mine has an "F" instead of a "V")

I hope these help you find the markings. These locations are where they will be on your revolver.

 

[dant]

There is really no need to run one of these guns by the guys at NASA to determine what its made out of. As has been suggested, scratch through the finish and see if it turns blue when you put a drop of cold blue on the gun.

I would use a little diamond burr on a Dremal tool. Under the grips, cut a little tiny divot in the frame. Just a couple thousands deep. If you can see a divot, its deep enogh. Put a drop of cold blue in the divot. if it turns blue, the gun is carbon steel that has been plated, almost assuredly it has been hard chromed.

Armoly in Fort Worth did TONS of cop guns around here. Stainless guns were very hard to find. Take your 19 and get it plated, it looks and acts just like a stainless gun. The color is almost an exact match for stainless.

There is the off chance it was mismarked at the factory. Possibly. Slight premium if someone wants a mismarked gun. I wouldn't pay extra for it, others might.

I don't think a letter will help either. If it was marked as a 19 but, was in realty a 66, I suppose Smith would still think its shipped as a 19 and, thier records would indicate that.

absolutely correct, and one could tell in a matter of minutes just what is metal of this gun, why the long drawn delay?? we are ONLY trying to help, wasn't in the firearms 'refinishing' business all those years for nothing.

 

[Engine49guy]

Just wanted to add that I recently came accross a non Model marked Model 19 that got out of the fatcory unmarked.
I also have seen two Model 60-3's (By SN#) with no dash marks.
Workers are human and things happen.

Letter $50, Bottle of cold blue $6.00, I would perform the cold blue test.

 

[M29since14]

I'm almost afraid to wade into this! This gun, as several have said, is so typical of refinished cop guns that were nearly a dime a dozen in the late-70s and early-80s that it seems the chances of it being even a mismarked specimen are small. But there is another possibility that I have not seen mentioned. The gun very easily could be a combination of both stainless and carbon steel parts. For example, could not the frame indeed be a 19-3 that has been hard chromed, and have a later stainless cylinder, or any combination of parts? (We see it appears to have flash chromed hammer and trigger.)

If it was serviced by a department armorer who was either working with what he had, or responding to the requests of the individual officer, this is another possibility. I seem to recall seeing several 19s that had had 66 cylinders installed by local armorers, but I am to the place where I do not trust my "memory" like I used to.

It is going to be hard to get to the bottom of this without someone knowledgeable having the revolver in-hand, who can inspect it. Maybe Mr. Jinks was thinking of this when he said a letter might not be much help, and he may have been too much of a gentleman to say it.

To me, the fact that the parts appear to have been marked, as would be typical for an after-market plating job, indicate there is little doubt the gun has been refinished. All a letter will state is what the records show the gun once was, when it left the factory. Again, as others have said, in spite of that, STILL a nice and useful revolver.

 

[handejector]

Dan,
Once again, it must be a sad person ( probably very qualified though) that would rather insinuate brilliance at someone's expense instead of offering to explain how to perform such a simple and fast test. I wonder if being of such lofty intellect makes a person agitated and condescending?

Uhhh-
I think you took Dan's post entirely wrong. Dan just told you a positive test:
Scratch the grip frame in an insignificant spot deeply enough to go through any possible finish, and see if cold blue will blue it. How is he insinuating brilliance at someone else's expense?
Sounds like a good idea to me.






Doc44 asked you early in this thread about the V pictured below. He also asked if there is an S inside the barrel shroud. You have yet to answer those two questions, yet keep pounding people here for their opinions.
Forgive us, but we have encountered many instances through the years where someone keeps "trying to believe the story into reality".
You dodge our questions and suggestions, and belittle us for lack of faith.......

What was the final verdict on the"V" on the rear cylinder face and the "S" in ejector shroud?

Jerry

FWIW-
I have seen hundreds of revolvers plated with Armaloy or MetaLife or some other satin, hard finish through the years that look just like stainless to most people. Actually put the gun beside a Mod 66 and compare the two in good light, though that might not be definative.
The sideplate and logo pic make me think refinish because the polish marks don't match any I have ever seen on an S&W in both texture and direction, whether blue OR stainless.
The numbered parts also make the refinish highly likely as others mentioned. After fitting and assembling the gun, why would S&W disassemble it and number all those small parts? They already had it built and assembled, so no need for the numbering. A refinish shop on the other hand that was plating 5 guns a day WOULD need to number them to get the same parts back in it.

 

[glev]

An update from the thread originator

I just wanted to stick my head back in the room and answer a few of the posts (both public and private) concerning my "19-3."

Once again thanks to all who offered suggestions. i learned a lot from you. I also corresponded with some genuinely helpful and interesting people.

At the same time, I found that one or two disagreements with other forum members led to a "piling on" that took the fun out of what had become an enjoyable time. It's too bad more so many take the time to add their own version of the same discontent.

Back to the revolver, I finally had a break from a hectic work schedule and will use the '"cold blue" test to find out if it's stainless or not. i went on to amazon and the choices were overwhelming. I would appreciate a few suggestions about exactly what product and other details. Should I get a touch up pen? Is there a particular brand to look for that's available in a small amount?

Thanks

 

[BruceM]

I'm sorry but I have to.

It took us 84 posts to get to this point-what cold blue to buy?



Bruce

 

[Engine49guy]

I bought a 4 oz bottle 10 years ago and its still half full.
I think its mostly the same product in different package.

I havent tried the pen yet but it looks to be the easist, especialy if your going to apply it inside the grip frame....
Good Luck.

 

[woodsltc]

I'm sorry but I have to.

It took us 84 posts to get to this point-what cold blue to buy?



Bruce

Yep!! We all may as well grin, laugh, and see the humor of this thread at this point.

 

[glev]

Thanks Bruce

I'm sorry but I have to.

It took us 84 posts to get to this point-what cold blue to buy?



Bruce

Thank you, I was trying to find the best way to explain myself before but you just did it for me. Moderator: I'm sorry in advance for the public reply.

Bruce, thanks to you, I'll add something (actually several things) to some words of wisdom already passed along. First rude is rude, especially directed at strangers and family. Two, happiness will never find "grumpiness" and rightly so.

Now go spit on the floor and save your comments for the wall. (No offense to those that spit tobacco, I'm prone to it myself. The word is just more suitable in a public forum)

 

[glev]

I forgot to say thanks to most and goodbye.

I want to especially thank Bill for the advice and "borntoraisehogs" for the incredible grips. You guys are great and it's been my pleasure to have corresponded with you.

 

[dant]

I don't think it will really matter just which type of 'cold blue' you happen to use, the "pen type" I question.....
more importantly it is the "mark" that you make ,somewhere out of the way , out of sight, like under the grips, and how deep you make it....you have to get below the surface enough to get at "base" metal...some of what I recall is that Armaloy, Metalife, and such, they have about a 2 mil build up and some can actually ingrain, into the metal surface.....this "mark" will in NO way hurt the integrity of the gun, and will never been seen and if it does "darken" ( turn blue) you KNOW it is NOT stainless, then by all means, leave it oiled................yes, this could have been done ,way back, January 24th or so, and some 80 posts earlier, quite simple and easy and yes, its done all the time when there is this type of question.Been doing this since the late 1960's.........