Mainsail
Member
Do you have a synopsis of the video? I tried to watch it several times and it froze, and made me start over from the beginning.
SIG P320 Discharges?
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Do you have a synopsis of the video? I tried to watch it several times and it froze, and made me start over from the beginning.
Cutting to the chase, he says this, which I posted earlier.
But he adds he will post more detailed videos on this this week. His presentation is also impressive, in that he is humble, and respectful of those who have experienced uncommanded discharges, saying he does not in any way question their honesty.
But he adds he will post more detailed videos on this this week. His presentation is also impressive, in that he is humble, and respectful of those who have experienced uncommanded discharges, saying he does not in any way question their honesty.
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Puller
Member
No one forgot, that just wasn't the question. Colt has been out of the military and law enforcement business for handguns for half a century. Not since Colt was putting revolvers in cop holsters in early 1980's have they even been a contender for a contract.
DWalt
Member
San Antonio Police Department announced today that it is suspending use of the SIG 320 after the Thursday USAF incident. https://www.military.com/daily-news...e-identified-21-year-old-kentucky-native.html Nothing stated about what will replace the 320 in the SAPD.
I have to echo the earlier opinion. What was wrong with the Beretta M9 that warranted a change? It was probably the toughest and safest handgun ever used by the US military, at least after some early debugging. Virtually indestructible, always reliable.
I have to echo the earlier opinion. What was wrong with the Beretta M9 that warranted a change? It was probably the toughest and safest handgun ever used by the US military, at least after some early debugging. Virtually indestructible, always reliable.
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Better yet, why did they go away from the 1911?
eclayton
Member
Don’t feel bad; I was required to carry the M9 the same way within the FOB as an active duty US Marine, conducting meetings with Afghan police counterparts who struck me as just a little bit dodgy. I kept one round concealed where it could do the most good, in the chamber. In the event of a green on blue incident that would at least give me one shot before drawing my knife. Those were the good old days when the issue pistol was physically incapable of an uncommanded discharge in the holster.
LVSteve
Member
Air Combat Command is also stepping back from the P320.
www.twz.com
Sig M18 Pistol Restrictions Expand To USAF Air Combat Command Units
Elements of Air Combat Command have joined Air Force Global Strike Command in halting use of M18 pistols after a fatal incident.
www.twz.com
Apparently it didn't fix it as the problem is too much tolerance between slide and frame.
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First, the trigger fix was not for this current issue; it was a response to the drop test failures that were brought to light by Omaha Outdoors in 2017. Sig made the change to a lighter trigger and a couple other modifications as part of their "voluntary upgrade" to address the problem with inertia firing the gun when dropped on the rear of the slide. That has absoluetly nothing to do with the current ADs being reported. No connection whatsoever. It's just yet another shameful chapter in the hasty and substandard engineering that went into development of the P320, a striker fired modification of their existing hammer fired P250. Second, they didn't do it out of the kindness of their tender hearts; they did it because they were getting their asses handed to them in the court of public opinion, just as they are now. All the while, they were telling their customer base that there was nothing wrong with the gun; the "voluntary upgrade" was a fix for a problem that they claimed didn't exist, yet it addressed a known safety issue to a gun they claimed wasn't unsafe, so the "voluntary upgrade" enhanced the safety of a perfectly safe gun, only now it was safer and there was never a problem even though that upgraded trigger solved a problem that they said didn't exist, despite our lying eyes seeing the problem that was nonexistant. Then, they also quietly changed the design to multiple parts and didn't inform P320 owners of the changes... because there was nothing wrong with the gun... no, these changes were merely enhancements because the gun was perfectly safe. Just ask them.
They earned every bit of the bad publicity for their outright lies, arrogance, and contempt for their paying customers.
I agree with Benton. The best case study on how to handle a product problem was the Tylenol problem. They did not question reported problems, pulled the product and cured the problem. Sig should take a lesson from this and move forward to investigate, warn and if necessary recall the weapon for a cure. Conducting an opposition PR campaign is futile and multiply losses.
When Audi was having issues years ago with unintended acceleration their sales tanked and they sat on the lots. I wanted a station wagon and bought one at an absurdly low price. The dealership went through the car and I drove it for 140 K trouble free miles until a lady in a Chevy Blazer tail ended me, totaling the car. Sometimes you have to take a chance and go for opportunities. Just watch out for crazy ladies driving Blazers while putting lipstick on.
Jim Watson
Member
I respect Bruce and he did nice work on my P226 but he has a vested interest in P320 as the high volume current model he has parts and service for.
He does acknowledge that at considerable length in the video.
“All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
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I lost a lot of respect for Bruce when he stubbornly insisted the P320 was absolutely drop safe and anyone who claimed otherwise was lying back in 2017. Then repeatable tests showed the P320 was not completely drop safe, leading to the infamous Sig "voluntary upgrade," which revealed that Bruce was FOS. I understand he is in a difficult position because he depends a lot on sales of Sig parts, but he should not be considered a trusted source of information on the P320 given his obvious conflict of interest. I agree he does acknowledged his vested interest in the video, but his past history of being wrong about the drop safety issue and his arrogant insistence that it "couldn't happen" at the time destroyed his credibility.
Ben Stoeger, the pistol training guru, has some very harsh things to say about Bruce Gray in his videos. He doesn't mince words.
Ben Stoeger, the pistol training guru, has some very harsh things to say about Bruce Gray in his videos. He doesn't mince words.
squidsix
Member
The thumb safety does not block the striker on these guns. The striker is fully loaded/compressed when the 320 is at rest. There are THREE THOUSANDTHS of engagement on the sear, and there is no firing pin safety.
Take your series 70 1911, pin the grip safety into the "off" position, leave the thumb safety on "fire" and holster it with the hammer back.
Now carry it like that all the time.
That is effectively the same level of "safe" that the P320 is.
I am glad to see departments and units moving away from them.
Take your series 70 1911, pin the grip safety into the "off" position, leave the thumb safety on "fire" and holster it with the hammer back.
Now carry it like that all the time.
That is effectively the same level of "safe" that the P320 is.
I am glad to see departments and units moving away from them.
"Ben Stoeger, the pistol training guru, has some very harsh things to say about Bruce Gray in his videos. He doesn't mince words."
I enjoy Ben’s candid, gritty style, BUT… where would his channel be without his constant speculation and drama?
The difference being that the fix for Audis was fairly simple, it was a rare problem, and unintended insulation can still be managed by hitting the brakes or forcing it into neutral.
I was actually banned from the sig talk for him for pointing this exact set of facts out. In a perfect world, like a CAD simulation, THE 320 IS A PERFECTLY SAFE DESIGN. THAT IGNORES LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN THE REAL WORLD.
OP
The really great thing about these policies were they ensured those who wanted to live cleaned their issued M9 regularly. A mag well fouled with sand really isn't a mag well at all.
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