Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P

[mbok]

Boom

The things many people complain about when firing a .357 load in a snubbie -- noise, muzzle flash -- are precisely the things I want to disorient an attacker in a self defense situation.

I have never considered any snubbie a range gun. It's a concealable, light close-in defense weapon first of all. I want the biggest boom I can get, and the biggest hole.

 

[apollo99]

I read the above posts, and I read the OP's opening question. A few weeks ago I was shooting at a hanging steel plate to roughly see what the various calibers I was shooting would do as far as bouncing it around. Now the OP's question was on .357,.38, and .38+P out of a snubbie. I had my 686-3 2 1/2" I was shooting standard 158 grain 38 loads, 158 grain +p in the 38 special cases, and the 158 grain magnum loads in a .357 magnum case. There was no doubt that even though some velocity was lost with the 2 1/2" barrel the .357 magnum loads were bouncing the 12" steel plate two to three times more than either of the 38 special offerings. As a matter of fact I didn't see too much difference in the steel jumping between the standard and the +P loads, but as I said when I went to the .357 Magnum , big, big difference. I know this wasn't very scientific and I didn't have a chrony, but the seat of the pants feel and the jump and movement of the plate made me a believer in .357 magnum in a snubbie. If recoil isn't a issue and one can manage follow up shots, I would say .357 magnum all the way.

 

[forrestinmathews]

The things many people complain about when firing a .357 load in a snubbie -- noise, muzzle flash -- are precisely the things I want to disorient an attacker in a self defense situation.

I have never considered any snubbie a range gun. It's a concealable, light close-in defense weapon first of all. I want the biggest boom I can get, and the biggest hole.

Well then you need to carry an Old Model Vaquero Sheriff's Model in .44 or .45. I agree with what you're saying though. Let them be blind and scared during the neutralization process.

As far as the .357 loads in a snubby, you never have to wait for the plate to start moving.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Cap and ball revolver will blind them even more. Maybe catch them on fire.

 

[Topsarge]

You might want to look at the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr short barrel .357 load. Rated at 990 FPS so there is less chance of a pass through. I've got them for my 686 2.5". Gold Dots are known for the expansion.

 

[BB57]

My disclaimer is the only thing I'm an expert at is not being an expert at anything.

Been a while ago. I had read about a group of trauma surgeons that were making the point that they weren't seeing the JHP expansion in real human shootings for bullets that had been shown to expand totally reliably in ballistic gel. They suggested in real world shootings, 148gr wadcutters did as much damage in real humans as JHP's because the JHP's weren't expanding. They didn't seem to have the clout to overcome the "FBI says" lobby.

Since I'm not a trauma surgeon or a ballistics expert, I don't have a good way to judge which side is true. I can look and see some pretty smart, BTDT people aren't "all in" with the results from ballistic gel testing being the holy grail of bullet performance.

A couple points to consider.

There is sampling bias involved in anything trauma surgeon do. For example I worked with a chest cutter 20 years ago had cut his teeth in both South Africa and NYC and had experience with over 1500 gun shot wounds to the torso. In his opinion, the 230 gr FMJ was by far the most 'lethal' bullet in his experience. That sounds suspect until you consider that his 'experience' was defined by people who survived a gun shot wound long enough to make it to his operating room.

He also agreed that the more gunshot wounds a person had, the less likely they were to survive, due to more blood loss through more wound tracks that damaged more organs and systems that were then much harder and look much longer to repair.

It's possible that the 230 gr FMJ was the bullet that tore the patient up the most - while still allowing him to survive, and that patients hit with hollow points were, all things being equal, were less likely to last long enough to get to the OR.

The other problem with trauma surgeon opinion is that the damage done to a patient surviving to the OR is not the same as rapid incapacitation. If you shoot someone 10 times with a .22 LR they have a high probability of dying but given that they lack the significant penetration needed for a CNS hit, a cardio vascular hit and/or large wound tracks to blood bearing organs that promotes fairly rapid loss of blood pressure, those 10 .22 LR rounds are not going to result in rapid incapacitation. Having an assailant die three days later is small comfort if he killed you after you shot him multiple times.

 

[BB57]

All that said above, I'm in agreement that the ballistic gelatin proponents might be missing some of the point. Ballistic gelatin is great for measuring expansion under repeatable laboratory conditions, but it's a consistent medium, and people are not made of consistent material, which raises serious questions about whether that reliable, consistent and repeatable laboratory data actually has much validity in a real world shoot.

On the other side, you have the data folks who do statistical analysis of real world shoots and then try to draw some conclusions on bullet effectiveness while dealing with a multitude of variables in real world shoots and trying to isolate the effects of bullet performance.

Invariably these two groups are in opposition, as one is dealing with consistent, reliable, repeatable testing and the other is dealing with actual shoots, which are messy and involve both a lot of variables and very limited control over a long list of variables.

What the gel folks seem to forget is that the standard of 12"-18" penetration with at least 1.5x expansion was based on some assumptions that may or may not be all that valid in the real world. The also tend to forget or ignore that real world results are what they are. You can argue about sample selection, methodology, etc, but at the end of the day, there are a large number of stops made by bullets that don't reliably meet the ballistic gelatin criteria.

----

I like a minimum penetration of around 12", and expansion is nice to have if I get it, but in the end it's shot placement that matters and absent one of these things you are not going to get rapid incapacitation:

1) a CNS hit (brain or the upper portion of the spinal column, which produces an immediate stop)

2) a cardio vascular hit to the heart or large arteries above the heart (which will produce a stop in 10-15 seconds if the upper chambers of the heart or arteries above the heart are hit and perhaps 2-3 times that long if the more muscular and more self sealing lower chambers of the heart are hit)

3) a psychological stop where the person stops simply because getting shot sucks and they don't want to get shot anymore (which occurs in about 50% of all shoots).

I'm not sure a hollow point makes much difference in 1 and 2. At best is provides for a wider wound track that slightly increases the chances of 1 and 2.

----

I wouldn't worry too much about failed expansion - provided it does not create a risk of over penetration. However over pentagon itself is over stated as over penetration occurs 100% of the time with any bullet if the shooter misses the target, and LEOs miss about 80% of the time.

Penetration does matter, but for an armed citizen shoot that is almost always face to face, the 12" penetration standard is probably over kill. I wouldn't turn my nose up at 10".

 

[Jcundiff]

38 vs 357

I by far am not informed of the tech side of each round. But, I have a step son that thought his wife would be better if he were dead. He sat on the sofa about 15 feet away, she shot him with a .22 LONG RIFLE. He had one collapsed lung, one big chunk of lead stopped under the shoulder blade skin. Oh, she shot him in the chest. He spent 2 days in intensive care, 3 more days in step down intensive care, one day in routine care. This happened in 2006. His wife died of o/dose in 2016. He still says he loved her. DUMBASS!!! Anyway, he still has problems breathing, muscles in chest. I only carry .38 caliber, Hornady Critical. I never feel under gunned. Just my 2 cents about a real life incident. Happy shootin and always be safe!

 

[BAM-BAM]

Well after skimming through all the posts in this thread....... I see that no one has convinced anyone of anything!!!!!!!

So much for thread 3838 or is it 10,357 on +P.38 vs .357.

For the record I carry +P.38s in the "Burbs of the Burgh" and .357 in the Laurel Highlands of Pa. in a 3" 65 or 66.

A .22lr will kill you; or stop an aggressor very quickly fired from a gun placed behind the ear or in an eye socket.........IMHO "stopping" shots are like "real estate".......what really matters is ...."location location location"..................... and with handguns there is a reason that folks advocate the 'double tap" and/or 2 to the chest and one to the head!!!!!

Now back to our regular programming....................

 

[BB57]

A few not so connected thoughts:

1. You need to take velocity numbers with a large grain of salt.

There is a great deal of variation in velocity in revolvers, even in the same model and barrel length, due to differences in cylinder gap, chamber and throat diameter (new versus old reamer), and bore dimensions. I've seen variation as high as 100 fps.

2. Velocity matters with a hollow point

Given that nearly all hollow points only achieve optimum performance over a fairly narrow velocity window, the actual velocity matters.

If pushed too fast a rapidly expanding hollow point can suffer from inadequate penetration (although as noted above 10-11" should still get the job done, while 7-8" maybe won't. If pushed to slow, it may not expand at all, particularly after penetrating heavy clothing that might plug the point and reduce the hydraulic effect that opens the point.

3. In the .357 Magnum, the powder used has significant impact on recoil.

In .357 Mag in particular, a load using a large charge (around 16 grains with a 158 gr load and around 21 grains with a 125 gr bullet) of comparatively slow burning colloidal ball powder will have significantly more recoil than a load with the same bullet using a lighter (around 8-9 grains) of a faster burning powder. This is because that powder, even if it fully burns, still has just as much mass, and that mass leaves the barrel at about 3x the velocity of the bullet.

That slow burning powder load will also have excessive muzzle flash in low light conditions.

4. Short barrel velocity with light bullets has some quirks.

The old internet wisdom is that slow powders produce maximum velocity in the .357 mag regardless of barrel length or bullet weight. In my experience over 20 years chronographing loads, a faster burning powder lie Unique will probably have an edge in velocity over the slower burning powder in the .357 Mag when shooting 125 gr bullets in 2" to 3" barrel - on the order of 100-150 fps . With a 158 gr bullet, you won't see much difference, and with 110 gr bullets, slower powders are not all that common so there isn't much to compare in at that bullet weight.

5. My personal loads and observations.

My preferred short barrel .357 Mag load uses a 125 gr XTP with a near maximum charge of a medium speed powder, giving me an average velocity of 1243 fps with an SD around 17.

In comparison a maximum published .38 +P load with the same bullet gives me an average velocity of 1056 fps in the same 2.5" revolver.

Does a couple hundred fps make a difference? It does to the extent that the expansion and penetration is more reliable at the faster speed. It also makes a difference in terms of recoil.

In my 3" Model 60 and 3" SP 101 I'l shoot the .38 +P load because the recoil of the .357 Magnum is too much to make it something I want to practice with, so those revolvers end up loaded with the +P load.

However in my 36 oz Model 66 and 40 oz Model 686+, that .357 Mag load is comfortable to shoot, so those pistols get loaded with the .357 Magnum load.

 

[AZretired]

So...After all this, my question is. Just how many of you are willing to tote around your 2.5" L Frame snubby day to day just so you can say you carry magnums?

Personally a 135 gr. Gold Dot .357 at under a thousand fps in a 36-40 oz weapon does not impress me. However a Buffalo Bore 158 LSWC-HP+P at over 1000 FPS shot out of my 16 OZ 642 does impress me. AND I can carry the 642 all day and hardly notice it.

 

[3S16]

When I do carry a 2" Model 60, I load it with Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWHP and don't feel undergunned.

 

[fdw]

My preferred round for my Ruger SP-101 is the Corbon DPX +P. I shoot it well and I believe it will do all I need it to.

I'm just not much on 357s out of this gun.

 

[gman51]

I quit carrying 357 mag in my snub for two reasons. The 357 going through the bad guy and possibly hitting someone else is one and second is you can just about bet you could end up deaf in at least the ear on your shooting side.
A 9mm is bad enough for causing hearing loss but a 357 you just about bet you will lose a large amount of hearing. I've had loss from the 9mm and I am no dang way wanting to experience a 357.
You say you will not notice the louder 357 in the case of a shooting don't even bet on that. A 38 spl or a +P will most likely save your life and you still could have more hearing left.
As far as the baseball bat I bet the lighter bat will still take the fight out of you. I've seen a big man knocked out by a 2x4 swung by a much lighter man. Little man or not the dude was flat out for the count on the ground.

 

[DevilDog72]

Well... for me and me alone... I carry the 135+P grn short barrel .38 in my 640nd and 158 gr sjhp 357 in my 19 and 66 snubs. I will worry about recoil and muzzle blast after the fight is over. All that said all reloads I carry are .38 +P 135 short barrel rounds because sometimes I carry both revolvers at the same time..... go figure......

Stay safe my friends.

 

[badge 851]

In both my 357 Magnum snubbies I carry Fiocchi® 357 Magnum 158gr XTP® (#357XTP25).

 

[BB57]

So...After all this, my question is. Just how many of you are willing to tote around your 2.5" L Frame snubby day to day just so you can say you carry magnums?

Personally a 135 gr. Gold Dot .357 at under a thousand fps in a 36-40 oz weapon does not impress me. However a Buffalo Bore 158 LSWC-HP+P at over 1000 FPS shot out of my 16 OZ 642 does impress me. AND I can carry the 642 all day and hardly notice it.

With a good belt and IWB holster I can carry a 2.5" Model 66 or Model 686 all day long, AND I can also shoot a Model 66 to 686 for 100 rounds or so of .357 Magnum without my hand feeling like it's been hammered on by an angry black smith.

I can't do that with even my steel frame 2 1/8" and 3" Model 60s, let alone a scandium J frame.

 

[smoothshooter]

Without Hesitation

I switched from carrying a Model 60 Chief's Special Target to the J-Magnum model 60 Chief's Special in the late 1990s just so I could carry 357 Magnum ammunition. The Remington 125 SJHP has been my favorite load for these revolvers for two decades now.

I have successfully qualified every time with the firearm over these years.
The amount of loss in velocity is an internet myth.

I gathered the average chronographed velocities obtained with 5 Smith and Wesson model 60s, 640s and a 340 all fired on the same day. Two five shot strings were obtained from each firearm. All ammunition was from the lot #

357 Magnum Winchester 125 JHP averaged 1205 FPS
357 Magnum Remington 125 SJHP averaged 1199 FPS
357 Magnum Remington 110 SJHP averaged 1230 FPS

It was interesting to notice that the 110 SJHP was faster than the 125s only in this instance.

These real world numbers are several hundred feet per second over what the manufacturers each claim for their 38 Special +P loadings

BTW, those averages include data from a factory ported model Performance Center 640. If I tossed that out and only included the non-ported snubbies, the averages go up about 10 FPS

No it is not fun to shoot, but these revolvers were not designed for plinking or a day of target shooting. These revolvers were designed to save your butt when you walked into something you did not expect. Under those conditions, I want the most power I can handle in the most comfortable package to carry.

Obviously 357 Magnum in a J-frame is not for everyone, and that is fine.

So let's step up to a 2 1/2" Model 19/66 K-frames, those velocities go up a little bit except with the 110. Only three revolvers were used to obtain these averages. We go to 1264 FPS, 1263 FPS and 1203 FPS respectively.

If we take this to a 3" barrel (1 Model 60 Pro and 1 F-comp) the Remington velocities go to 1290 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1243 FPS for the 110 SJHPs. Again the 110s are slower. I did not have enough of the Winchester left on hand for these revolvers.

OK going to 3 1/2" we have two N-frames (Both PC revolvers). Here the Remington velocities go to 1370 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1338 FPS for the 110 SJHPs. These did have tight B/C gaps that probably accounted for the higher velocities more than the extra 1/2" of barrel did. The Big N-frame, even with the short barrel, is much more pleasant to shoot than the smaller revolvers.

Sticking with the N-frame, I had two 4" model 27s. The Remington velocities go to 1391 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1321 FPS for the 110 SJHPs on these.

Taking this to the 5 1/2" Model 627 (sorry I only had one). The Remington velocities go to 1422 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1367 FPS for the 110 SJHPs on this one.

Now if you want the 357 Magnum to REALLY perform we can go to my 18" 1892 lever action. The Remington velocities go to 2049 FPS for the 125 SJHPs and 1727 FPS for the 110 SJHPs in this example.

I wish I had more ammunition and more real world guns to include in my study. However you can see that the loss in a 2" J-magnum is not as great as the Internet would like you to believe.

There would likely be more of a difference with heavier bullets and slower burning powders.

 

[Old cop]

Maybe I'm a wimp but @ 70, and carrying the no-lock 340PD, I find follow-up shots almost impossible w/full house .357 so I carry four rounds of +P and one round (last one) of .357.

 

[forrestinmathews]

One of the scant few standard pressure .38spl rounds that expanded reasonably well out of a 2" barrel in LuckyGunners tests was the new Winchester 130gr. "Train & Defend" JHP. This appears to be good stuff and is what I now carry in my 642 Airweight. Plus, it's available at Walmart.

Ranger and PDX loads both seem to expand better. Availability is king though.