Striker Fire rather than Hammer Fire?
- Thread starter dlombard
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Well, two points:
BTW, I'm not getting your point (here and above) re: S&W revolvers.I'm not seeing the tie-in to the topic. Perhaps you could clarify?
For one part of your question, I wouldn't use MA compliance as a guide to what's popular. Like California, it's stupid expensive to get them to check out a gun, and any changes made to the gun (like a different P226 variant) requires retesting (and more cash).
As far as the revolver crack goes, a reason the 3rd Gens were cancelled is because the market wants plastic guns that are lighter, hold more bullets, and far cheaper to make. Revolvers have lost the majority of their popularity. They're also gigantic, heavier than any 1911, and only hold between 5-8 rounds. They also cost Sig money to buy. In other words, they're the exact opposite of what the "market" says it wants.
Using that logic, if S&W wants to make revolvers, they should be making polymer frames because they're cheaper and lighter.
Whereas the market has shown that people will pay more for a premium firearm that's well made and crafted. The CZ Shadow is the overwhelming ruler of competition guns, even over Glock.
It seems counter intuitive, but Bill Wilson is a huge fan of Beretta 92s. He's a big enough industry figure that if he asks if you want to work together and a business venture, you shut up and count how much money you've made. When he talked to Beretta, the Italians declared the 92 dead and the PX4 was the future. No one wanted an improved 92 otherwise the 90-two would have been a massive success.
After using his crowbar of justice, he pryed Beretta's ironclad cheeks far enough open to make a limited run of 1,000 Brigadier Tacticals. In the first week of preorders, they sold out their initial run of 250 pistols and most of their 2nd shipment of 250. It's been such a massive success that it's no longer a limited run. It's been so big they made the Custom Carry as another non-limited run.
They also did a run of the 92G-SDs for the folks stuck in "People's Republics..." and they're hard to find. Even the M9A3 in dog poo brown has sold through it's initial run until they get their new TN plant up and gets through the next order of M9s for the military.
And Sig is drowning in cash to such a degree they've started making their own optics and ammo.
All of this for a type of gun that the market has indicated that it "doesn't want" according the what it does want listed earlier. But it will sell you a .460 XVR with a 10.5" barrel, a 5 round capacity, weighs more than 3 Glocks, and costs around $1,300 street price. But supposedly, according to S&W, more people want that revolver more than a high quality 9mm/.45 that's not a 1911, is of high quality, reliable, can outshoot the average plastic pistol, and is something the average person would use for self defense.
If you're a law enforcement agency and you write a big enough check, you can have them built.
Doing a minor drift, I would not go back to the same strategy that S&W used before they canceled them. I wouldn't bother with a Value Line at all. I wouldn't build a DAO variant. I wouldn't spend the money for an alloy frame model since they didn't sell well and cost the same as the steel models. I wouldn't build any .40 models because they don't sell well and S&W did something with their magazine design to limit them to a max of 11 rounds. Just leave them 9mm and .45, full size TSW with the integrated rail, and the 3913/4513 CCW line that no one had done as good ever since.
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OK!...... well I'd go with the 4566 vs 4506!
Wasn't he all about the 1911 and, really, not a whole lot else?No he was not a fan of DA/SA pistols. He WAS a strong proponent of good triggers and espoused the importance of a good trigger in accurate shooting.
As well he should. I'm not looking for a hair trigger on the gun I carry in my pocket. Use of safety notwithstanding, I'd probably shoot myself getting in or out of the car.
I recently had a chance to try a bullseye competition grade single action pistol with the lightest trigger ever (lighter than any Model 41 or 52-2 I've ever picked up). It was fabulous for me at the range, but I'm not asking for that on a carry or personal defense gun. On the other hand, too many of the striker-fired plastic wonders I've tried are simply atrocious trigger-wise, especially here behind enemy lines. If you ever want a new job, you'd make a great Assistant AG in the People's Republic of Taxachusetts.
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Wasn't he all about the 1911 and, really, not a whole lot else?
He was a fan of the CZ design, and was a proponent of the Bren Ten, which was based on the CZ DA pistols. He definitely was all about the 1911, but even moreso about a good trigger being key to accurate shooting.
Oh snap! I completely forgot about that. I'm use to S&W autos having 4" barrels. I completely forgot the .45s came in 5" versions. I'll pretend I meant for that distinction and say 5" models and a small batch of 10mm are reserved "if sales warrant them..."
I'm giving your post a "like" just for the writing effort alone even if I don't understand most of it.
Maybe just a huge mental block on my part. I am, after all, not your typical handgun buyer today. At least I don't think I am. For the record, I'd still be buying S&W revolvers today if it weren't for the stupid IL and a few other cheapening down measures that turn me off. I'm not a fan of a lot of their newfangled revolver designs and the mega-monster caliber hunting guns, but I can think of at least half a dozen S&W revolvers that I'd love add to the collection this year if it were not for the silly IL (which I find repulsive on multiple levels).
I did understand your points about some of the newly minted all-metal pistols and updated designs... and I think that's a great thing even if not necessarily for me personally.
I can't agree with your last paragraph at all. We all have our own ideas about how we'd like to see S&W re-introduce at least some of the 3rd Gen guns or updated versions thereof. It is discussed here quite regularly.
But again, I am not your typical gun buyer today and my collection of used 3rd Gens along with harsh financial realities probably wouldn't make me the most anxious and aggressive buyer of brand new ones anyway with the possible exception of a new version 4506 or 1006. 
Lots of truth and preferences. I prefer hammer fired. My gun, my preference. Do I think they are far superior. A little in that the hammer is a part of the gun ( a tool) that can be manipulated by the user in certain situations. With the striker fired you have only one option..pull the trigger.
I don't believe striker fired are less reliable. I just prefer to have more control over my firearm.
I don't believe striker fired are less reliable. I just prefer to have more control over my firearm.
Towns
Member
You might want to try a really bad example of a Massachusetts trigger sometime. You might be surprised at just how nasty the trigger can be on a modern plastic gun.
Amen. I kind of like heavier triggers if they're good triggers, so thought about getting a Walther PPS with Mass trigger. Found out I did NOT want that one after all.
My son put a NY1 trigger in a Glock 19 and it was actually a very good 9 # trigger pull, with a good break.
My 6906 has a 10 to 11 lb trigger in DA, and it is VERY smooth.
Ed Fowler
Member
I fear the day of the disposable hand gun is not far away, may even be here now.
The MA-compliant trigger on the old Walther PPS was widely regarded as one of the absolute worst triggers ever. For years, I wanted a PPS so badly... but it was essentially a useless hunk of plastic with that incredibly awful MA trigger.
Fortunately for me, right before the introduction of the PPS M2 when Walther was blowing out the old model at bargain basement prices, I was able to get my hands on a free state version of the PPS.
Can't say where or how... but what a difference!!! It's still not what I would call an outstanding trigger, but it is certainly miles ahead of the MA-compliant version. Other than the insanely terrible MA-compliant PPS, the worst triggers I've ever found were on various MA-complaint M&P45 and Shield .40 pistols... some of them virtually unusable. But like I've said before, there is a lot of variation in S&W MA-compliant triggers. Eventually, I found an M&P45 FS that I could live with... and I bought it. Not so much for the Shield .40, but it's not a pistol I'm all that interested in anyway. Both of my Shield 9's were hand-picked and are more-or-less okay.
spad124
Member
And Sig just reintroduced the P225. Someone sees a market for nice DA/SA pistols.
I suspect they reintroduced the 225 to capitalize on the hot market for concealable single stack 9mms. They still had the tooling. It was easy to spool up production.
I may be mistaken but I don't think it is the same gun as the original P225.
Arik
Member
It's not, even mags are different. Besides that the Originals were made in Germany. These are made in the US. Sig USA and SIG are in a way two different companies
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Of course!
We'll forgive you for not wearing your Sonny Crockett outfit on a routine basis. It gets cold where you live...
Yeah, when the new 225 came out I tried to buy a couple extra mags but my guy at the gun store (who also owns a P6) informed me that they wouldn't work.
Hey, you may laugh Pete... but back in the day, Sonny and I were practically indistinguishable from one another.
Twins almost!!! Here is an old photo of me...
... or maybe that one is Sonny?
It's even hard for me to tell at this point. 
OK Hog Shooter
Member
All I gotta say is that I'm an old fashioned older guy... only one striker fired pistol in my safe... please give me a 2nd/3rd gen Smith or any older non-IL Smith wheel gun! I like a hammer, preferably DA/SA... trigger pull doesn't matter to me; it's just a question of getting used to whatever I have with me at the time... so I guess I will have to practice with them all... darn it! [emoji1303][emoji41][emoji1303]
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CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I prefer a hammer gun over striker. I never liked the idea that when everything was "at rest" the hammer pin spring was still slightly compressed no matter how many internal safeties. I also like the idea of repeat strike capability which striker fired guns do not have-save for the two exceptions listed earlier.
Finally S&W does indeed currently manufacture a hammer fired plastic gun-the M&P380. It was for this reason I bought it over the Ruger.
Finally S&W does indeed currently manufacture a hammer fired plastic gun-the M&P380. It was for this reason I bought it over the Ruger.
LedFowl
Member
I think the Luger is striker fired. The idea has been around for a while.
5Wire
Member
I hear ya.
My thinking, exactly. That has lead to my respect and admiration for the pistols I mentioned above, HK P7s and SW/Walther P99s. Both allow relaxed striker spring conditions with easy, tangible and visual confirmation.
The P7 requires only to slightly relax one's grip on the cocking lever (front strap). No pressure, gun will not fire.
P99s decock. No pressure. The trigger reverts to a relatively long double action pull. Gun will fire. In fact the manual for my first P99 (an early one) tersely printed in red for emphasis, to the effect, "If you want to fire the P99, pull the trigger. Made sense to me.
It seems to me overall the advantage of striker fired pistols is the combination of reduced mass and reduced volume of space in which to house a mechanism to detonate primers.
I never understood the idea that mediocre accuracy and horrid triggers are acceptable for SD guns.
If I'm forced to shoot another person in SD, I want to make damned sure that my rounds go exactly where they should. Missing the BG and hitting someone or something else is unacceptable.
I want the best possible trigger and the best possible accuracy, without sacrificing reliability and durability.
Horrible triggers are not conducive to good accuracy.
I'd like to see someone tell the competition crowd that good triggers are a crutch, and that they should just learn how to shot what they have.
It just doesn't work that way in the real world.
Crappy trigger pulls throw your shots off.
I have both metal/hammer-fired and Tupperware-striker fired.
I carry both. I like both. I like metal/hamer-fired much better.
If I'm forced to shoot another person in SD, I want to make damned sure that my rounds go exactly where they should. Missing the BG and hitting someone or something else is unacceptable.
I want the best possible trigger and the best possible accuracy, without sacrificing reliability and durability.
Horrible triggers are not conducive to good accuracy.
I'd like to see someone tell the competition crowd that good triggers are a crutch, and that they should just learn how to shot what they have.
It just doesn't work that way in the real world.
Crappy trigger pulls throw your shots off.
I have both metal/hammer-fired and Tupperware-striker fired.
I carry both. I like both. I like metal/hamer-fired much better.
Please help my ignorance.......
The 'hammer' doesn't look like a 'hammer' in my 5943. It looks like it's plastic and that it might hit a striker type thing. Is that right????
OK, what's the difference in reliability, repeatability and all of those other 'billities' between hammers and strikers? Which one works better and why???
The 'hammer' doesn't look like a 'hammer' in my 5943. It looks like it's plastic and that it might hit a striker type thing. Is that right????
OK, what's the difference in reliability, repeatability and all of those other 'billities' between hammers and strikers? Which one works better and why???
99savage308
Member
Striker or hammer fire. For real? Is this talk for real? Well for a save my back side and someone else's. Who in this world gives a shiatsu. These striker guns are made to the job and not cost a car payment. As of early this year, Smith and Wesson has shipped a million Shields since they started making 'em. So what is the beef? Smith has proved once again they kick butt when it comes to making and selling guns. Some gun companies have looked and learned how to make a handgun the way it should be and the way it should be made. Striker fire works hands down. Nuff said .
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