The Slippery Slope...

[blues7]

Thanks guys...you've given me a great deal of food for thought and some excellent advice (mixed with good humor).

As a result, I'm going back to the drawing board and going to spend time putting more rounds down range before revisiting the need to "upgrade" or "enhance" the rifle.

I've cancelled my order for the Aimpoint PRO. You enablers are just going to have to work a little harder.

I do hope that we can keep this thread going, however.
It has the feel of a bunch of friends sharing thoughts and laughs over a few cold ones.

(On a positive note, I do have some ammo being delivered today from PSA. So all is not lost. )

 

[snm8510]

I too have updated my thinking on dot size.

I used to want the smallest dot possible for precision. However, the larger dot really is faster to acquire. That doesn't mean you can't be precise with it.

This is one reason I liked the EOTech circle and dot reticle. Still have fast acquisition with the circle and really fine precision with the dot. Alas, L3 has not taken care of their problems like they should.

My astigmatism made the EOTech a living nightmare for me.. Very blurry and my eyes would always try to fix the image (and ultimately fail) so when EOTech announced they'd refund the sights, I was all over that to replace it with an Aimpoint..

And I've always heard magnifiers usually end up in the parts box.. I've toyed with the idea of a 1-4, but for now I'll stick with my PRO

 

[Kadonny]

As @snm8510 said, a 1x4 is also a great choice. So many optics, so little time.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Beautiful pic, hope the deer made it out of your yard safely

Thanks.

Deer are quite safe on my property. Squirrels robbing the bird feeder may not be so lucky...

Back on topic... has blues7 considered a Trijicon?

 

[blues7]

I took the bird feeders down after having black bear up there a half dozen times. They never made a mess but for one time they spilled the seed all over. Usually I just chased 'em off. The squirrels were a major pain as well but I usually pissed 'em off with an old bb gun that didn't have enough power to break the skin.

 

[Rastoff]

Back on topic... has blues7 considered a Trijicon?

A Trijicon what?

This one is on my short list:

However, the price tag is keeping me at bay.

This is the TA33. It has the most generous eye relief of the small, fixed optics from Trijicon. The 3x power is enough to be real help at 100 yards, but not so much as to be bothersome at 15 yards. It's 7.7oz weight is about half what my 1-4x24 weighs. It's a marvelous optic, but pricey.

I don't like the dual illumination RMRs from Trijicon though. If you're standing in shadow, and the target is lit, the dot doesn't show bright enough. Every other lighting condition is great. Bright light, low light or even no light, they are great.

 

[blues7]

Blues has not. The only Trijicon products that Blues has ever looked at were night sights for Glocks...which he didn't purchase. (I still use an old school handheld Surefire 6z with my handguns.)

In fact, all three of my handguns are OEM and unmodified except for mandatory trigger and spring swap outs on the Glocks. My shotgun is OEM but for a Surefire DSF-870 forend weaponlight and a Blackhawk sling.

Hmmm, maybe the slope's not as slippery as I thought. I've got some serious catching up to do!

 

[tcon]

I have two AR's that I shoot. The one that I consider my go-to is a pencil-barrel A2 style with integral handle rear sight. I'm 55 but my LASIK surgery I had 13 years ago still has me at better than 20/20 at distance. I'm in love with the AR iron sights with the rear elevation drum. It's hard to accept that I'm the the only one that loves the system but it seems like I'm usually in this very small minority. On this A2 90's rifle, I have a Trijicon front sight post and a Trijicon rear flip aperture with dual dot inserts on the large ring.

I've modified the rear elevation drum to allow the drum to go two clicks below the 8/3 mark (a quick, reversible mod). This allows for a 200m (also 50yd) zero which is popular because of its acceptably flat trajectory out to 250m. For 300m, turn the drum two clicks up to 3/8 and the rest of the drum markings are theoretically ranged for those distances. This modification is called the Improved Battlesight Zero (IBZ) and was made popular by Lt. Colonel Chuck Santose and the procedure is documented in several places on the web.

I like that rifle because it's light, repeatably accurate, tough, simple and I'm very comfortable and fast with both sizes of apertures.

The other one I shoot is a 2013 and it has a TA31F ACOG (red chevron with M193/M855 bullet-drop compensator). I love it for its crystal clear 4X, easy to read reticle and also for the Bindon Aiming feature which after training, allows two-eye instant close-target acquisition.

I agree with you that it's best to wait, get acquainted with the iron sights and read as much about the sighting options as you can instead of heaving $ at it.

If you do decide to look into getting a A3 carry handle, PM me and I can tell you what to look for to make sure you get a good military-contract model meant for "F" front sight bases vs the commercial version which might be of lesser quality and may not work as well with the "F" base without a taller front sight post insert.

 

[blues7]

I agree with you that it's best to wait, get acquainted with the iron sights and read as much about the sighting options as you can instead of heaving $ at it.

If you do decide to look into getting a A3 carry handle, PM me and I can tell you what to look for to make sure you get a good military-contract model meant for "F" front sight bases vs the commercial version which might be of lesser quality and may not work as well with the "F" base without a taller front sight post insert.

Appreciate the feedback.

I don't think I'll be adding a carry handle since the TS was set up with the polymer MBUS. I thought about adding iron sights that were actually metal but I'm not certain that they would perform any better. Feel free to set me straight on whether it's worthwhile and which you would recommend.

It's funny, but even when I was on SRT back in the 80's and 90's the only scope I ever used was on my issued Steyr AUG. (Never had any form of optics on shotguns, MP-5s or other issued firearms back then.)

 

[Rastoff]

The rear back up sight they had on the M4 I used in training was a Matech:

It was used in conjunction with an Aimpoint Comp M4. We zeroed it at 300 yards. Then with the switch set to 200, you're good for everything 200 yards and closer.

I have one on my rifle. However, I'm going to take it off. With my eyes, the rear aperture is so fuzzy, it's almost invisible. This doesn't make for a quality sight picture.

 

[blues7]

Ouch! I'm sure you'll have a replacement in no time.

Glad to hear about the trigger. (Kinda sorta...)

Keep us posted.

 

[Maddmax]

I don't think I'll be adding a carry handle since the TS was set up with the polymer MBUS. I thought about adding iron sights that were actually metal but I'm not certain that they would perform any better. Feel free to set me straight on whether it's worthwhile and which you would recommend.

Can't say I was ever a big fan of the carry handle. To me, they just didn't feel right and I never used them. I used the butt under my arm, hand on the grip or the sling.

How ever, once Magpul came out with the metal BUIS, I did start switching over to those. I like metal over polymer, they still fold and the front sight doesn't need a tool to adjust the post.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

A Trijicon what?


This is the TA33. It has the most generous eye relief of the small, fixed optics from Trijicon. The 3x power is enough to be real help at 100 yards, but not so much as to be bothersome at 15 yards. It's 7.7oz weight is about half what my 1-4x24 weighs. It's a marvelous optic, but pricey.

I don't like the dual illumination RMRs from Trijicon though. If you're standing in shadow, and the target is lit, the dot doesn't show bright enough. Every other lighting condition is great. Bright light, low light or even no light, they are great.

Don't care for the RMR either. It suffers the same curved glass distortion as does my Burris FF III, along with the light issues you describe.

If I replace the Aimpoint I might take a look at the 1.5x or 2x ACOG models. I just don't find magnification of much value shooting offhand. If anything, it makes me more tentative. That said, as my eyes feel the time go by I'm increasingly thinking that I may just find it more comfortable to have a sharper image down range. I'm not quite there... yet.

Trijicon recently came out with the MRO. LaRue sells it with one of their QD mounts for under $500. That's an attractive price. I was hoping it would be on par with the Aimpoint Micro but have heard some less than glowing remarks.

 

[blues7]

How ever, once Magpul came out with the metal BUIS, I did start switching over to those. I like metal over polymer, they still fold and the front sight doesn't need a tool to adjust the post.

I see that the new version of the MBUS Pro LR contains an elevation adjustment wheel for the rear sight.

Trijicon recently came out with the MRO. LaRue sells it with one of their QD mounts for under $500. That's an attractive price. I was hoping it would be on par with the Aimpoint Micro but have heard some less than glowing remarks.

I happened upon some reviews on amazon last night before hitting the sack and as you say, there were some pretty disappointed customers who weighed in on it.


Getting back to iron sights for a moment...

I'm wondering how much of an upgrade, (beyond the smaller size and metal construction), the Magpul Pro sights would be over the polymer. I know one advantage is that the front sight does not need the tool for adjustment. One downside (potentially) is that the sights are not spring loaded like the polymer MBUS.

Anyone else have experience with them? Or a better alternative?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Getting back to iron sights for a moment...

I'm wondering how much of an upgrade, (beyond the smaller size and metal construction), the Magpul Pro sights would be over the polymer. I know one advantage is that the front sight does not need the tool for adjustment. One downside (potentially) is that the sights are not spring loaded like the polymer MBUS.

I don't know... but Google "MBUS drop test comparison".
The results might surprise you.

 

[blues7]

I don't know... but Google "MBUS drop test comparison".
The results might surprise you.

I'll go have a look-see.

 

[blues7]

I don't know... but Google "MBUS drop test comparison".
The results might surprise you.

Alrighty then...I just saved $180+ on new iron sights.
(Shame on me, a long and devoted Glock devotee for ever doubting the power of polymer. )

Triggers and optics...triggers and optics...triggers and optics.

See? I may not have jumped (yet) but it don't mean I ain't been listening.

 

[Rastoff]

I don't have the "curved glass" issue that you do Phil. Maybe we just see things differently? Mine seems perfectly un-distorted. Then again, I haven't looked at it for that specific quality. At least, it doesn't stand out to me as distorted.

I will look closer at it this evening.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[blues7]

BTW, speaking of triggers and optics...just out of curiosity, would installing an aftermarket trigger in an M&P15 void the S&W warranty?

(I realize that someone with more knowledge and dexterity would probably be able to remove the aftermarket and reinstall the OEM trigger...but I'm just curious what the S&W policy is on such modifications to the "as delivered" firearm.)

 

[Maddmax]

I see that the new version of the MBUS Pro LR contains an elevation adjustment wheel for the rear sight.

That "falls" into my tooo many moving parts list for having just a simple BUIS.

Never really cared for the spring loaded pop up sights one way or the other. So not having them on the metal sights isn't a big deal.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

BTW, speaking of triggers and optics...just out of curiosity, would installing an aftermarket trigger in an M&P15 void the S&W warranty?

(I realize that someone with more knowledge and dexterity would probably be able to remove the aftermarket and reinstall the OEM trigger...but I'm just curious what the S&W policy is on such modifications to the "as delivered" firearm.)

I can't imagine an issue where that could be. In any event, if you ever have the need to send your rifle to S&W don't send it with aftermarket parts.

Forget about the warranty. I mean... the notion that you're not going to do with your rifle what you want to do for fear of voiding the warranty is silly. Anything can be replaced from a zillion different vendors for not much money.

 

[Maddmax]

BTW, speaking of triggers and optics...just out of curiosity, would installing an aftermarket trigger in an M&P15 void the S&W warranty?

(I realize that someone with more knowledge and dexterity would probably be able to remove the aftermarket and reinstall the OEM trigger...but I'm just curious what the S&W policy is on such modifications to the "as delivered" firearm.)

DO NOT send ANY S&W firearm back to the factory with-out the original OEM parts installed. It's a liability thing on their end.

It might not void the warrantee (depending on how drastic the add-on parts are), but they WILL BE REMOVED and the weapon restored to its original factory condition. You may or MAY NOT get your parts back. Don't even send the mag. They have plenty of their own.

 

[blues7]

When I sent my TS back for warranty work after putting a grand total of one round down range, the only items on the rifle which weren't on it when it was received were a 2" Troy rail section that came with the rifle and I had affixed to the handguard; and two QD cups: one from Midwest Industries that fit around the castle nut and the other from IWC that was installed on the MOE stock.

None of those items were missing or removed...but yeah, I'd not send in magazines or aftermarket items otherwise, especially nothing of value.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I don't have the "curved glass" issue that you do Phil. Maybe we just see things differently? Mine seems perfectly un-distorted. Then again, I haven't looked at it for that specific quality. At least, it doesn't stand out to me as distorted.

I will look closer at it this evening.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

They all have it. Some folks don't notice it. Just like my Burris FF III, lots of guys say there is no distortion. But even Burris admits there's something like 1.08x magnification. Some eyes are more sensitive to it or perhaps more conditioned to using a true 1x optic like Aimpoint.

Here's a review of an RMR. See the chart item "Glass". Now the guy is way off thinking it's like 1.5x. https://trex-arms.com/trijicon-rmr-versus-aimpoint-t1-for-pistols/

The distortion is there, particularly noticeable around the permitter similar to fisheye effect.

 

[Maddmax]

None of those items were missing or removed...but yeah, I'd not send in magazines or aftermarket items otherwise, especially nothing of value.

Those would be considered non essential items with the safe function of the weapon or it's operation. So while being a mute point with some employees, others (that like to flex their "power") employees... they'll push the very edge of the line. If they are nice, they'll just remove and return the parts. Not nice, scrap bin ???

One of the reasons I've stayed with S&W (and a few others), is their warrantee. They back it up and do it on their own dime to boot if it's their fault or even sometimes not their fault.

 

[SeniorChief5352]

Gents,

I've narrowed my new upper assembly down to the following:

20" Bravo Company BCM SS410 Upper Receiver Group with ALPHA 15" Handguard.

Or

20" LaRue Tactical 5.56 Stealth Sniper System (LT011) I've dealt with Larue many times in the past. Always had excellent service and quality upon delivery.

Have any of you dealt with Bravo Company in the past? I'm mainly concerned with barrel quality. What say you?

This upper will be paired with an M&P15 lower that's just laying around... The rifle will be used to reach out and touch 'stuff' beyond 450 yards.

 

[blues7]

This upper will be paired with an M&P15 lower that's just laying around... The rifle will be used to reach out and touch 'stuff' beyond 450 yards.

So let me see if I understand how this works...I've got a spare tire valve stem cap laying around in the garage, so...ipso facto...new off-road vehicle!

Damn, the stuff you learn on this forum!

(Oh, and don't forget that bipod that's just sitting around! )

 

[Kadonny]

So let me see if I understand how this works...I've got a spare tire valve stem cap laying around in the garage, so...ipso facto...new off-road vehicle!

Damn, the stuff you learn on this forum!

(Oh, and don't forget that bipod that's just sitting around! )

No it's more like I have this engine laying around with no car to put it in. That's a better analogy. The lower is half the build.

 

[blues7]

No it's more like I have this engine laying around with no car to put it in. That's a better analogy. The lower is half the build.

K, I think you missed my (apparently feeble) attempt at sarcasm. That's okay, you can stand me to a Laphroaig, (your choice), and my feelings won't be hurt.

 

[blues7]

For you guys that have both...can a red dot be seen if you use a weapon light on your rifle to illuminate a threat?

I don't plan on using my TS as my primary inside the home defense firearm. That task is assigned to my Glock 19 with standard or extended mag which would hopefully allow me to reach an 870 with 7 rounds of reduced recoil 00 buckshot.

I have tested several times and with the Surefire weapon light on the shotgun forend, and the Streamlight TLR-1 HL on the AR, I can clearly see both the front bead of the shotgun as well as the MBUS on the M&P15.

If you had occasion to employ your AR with your weapon light either indoors or out, would the dot be washed out by the light or could you pick it up on the target?

(I realize that for close range encounters you may very well be in a quick point and shoot situation and that the weapon light alone acts as a crude aiming device with or without sights but bear with me since I have no way of testing this with an RDS.)

Thanks, gents.