What part to file hand/ratchet fitting

[Petrov]

Hey folks I have a 627 that had too many fast and hard DA rounds and dry fire through it. The extractor ratchet surfaces are messed up.
I got new extractor and new hand. No I am not sending it to the factory, this is my hobby and I enjoy learning.
Obviously with new hand and extractor when I pull the trigger revolver binds up looks like the hand doesnt want to slip past the bend of the ratchet.
I am supposed to file the ratchet and not the hand correct?
Which part of the ratchet do I file? The one closer to the inside against which the "push" starts or the outside part against which the hand comes to rest?

Edit: terrible drawing representing a ratchet.

 

[WR Moore]

I'm not going to touch this one. The factory uses/used a special cutter working through the hand window to fit the ratchet to the hand window. I expect someone with more knowledge will provide more information.

Your drawing is rotated CCW too far. The top of the hand starts rotating the cylinder when the vertical part of your drawing is about horizontal. At some point, it engages the "crooked" part to get final alignment.

 

[ken158]

Lots to learn here. How did you get a new ratchet when that is a factory installed item? What size hand did you have and what size did you get? The ratchets are filed but identifying the one that needs the filing is to the right of the one under the barrel. A Barrett file is used to follow the proper angle. You really need one of the books that are out there with pics and descriptions of how to do this.

 

[Petrov]

Lots to learn here. How did you get a new ratchet when that is a factory installed item? What size hand did you have and what size did you get? The ratchets are filed but identifying the one that needs the filing is to the right of the one under the barrel. A Barrett file is used to follow the proper angle. You really need one of the books that are out there with pics and descriptions of how to do this.

I have the Khunahusen(sic?) manual.
I had to order a whole cylinder assembly to get the extractor. I got just the regular S&W arm.

 

[Protocall_Design]

You can buy just the extractor without having to get a new cylinder.

The hand is hard tool steel. The ratchets are soft steel. All the wear occurs on the ratchets. The ratchets are (usually) all the same when new. The best way to deal with this is to make the hand thinner to fit the ratchets. Then, as time goes on, and the ratchets wear down, you can just use a wider hand to bring everything back to spec. It's much quicker and easier to make one hand fit all the ratchets than to make all the ratchets fit the hand.

Once the hand is fitted, it's a good idea to file a small radius or angle on the top left corner of the hand to eliminate the sharp corner there. That will make the ratchets wear a lot longer by not having a sharp cutting edge going against them every trigger pull.

In order to file the hand, you have to use a diamond file. A regular file literally won't cut it. You only file the left side of the nose of the hand, nowhere else. Lay the file and hand on the bench or other flat surface to get it flat lengthways and sideways. Then raise the file up without tilting it from that orientation and file a bit on the hand nose. Put the hand back on the trigger and the hand and trigger back in the gun and check your progress by cycling the action. You can speed up the process by leaving the hand on the trigger during filing.

If you file too much on the hand, it's cheap and easy to get another hand and try again. If you file one ratchet wrong, you have to get a new extractor (again).

You can get a set of diamond needle files for $10 or $15. Even the cheap Chinese ones work fine.

 

[Alk8944]

Hey folks I have a 627 that had too many fast and hard DA rounds and dry fire through it. The extractor ratchet surfaces are messed up.
I got new extractor and new hand. No I am not sending it to the factory, this is my hobby and I enjoy learning.
Obviously with new hand and extractor when I pull the trigger revolver binds up looks like the hand doesnt want to slip past the bend of the ratchet.
I am supposed to file the ratchet and not the hand correct?
Which part of the ratchet do I file? The one closer to the inside against which the "push" starts or the outside part against which the hand comes to rest?

Edit: terrible drawing representing a ratchet.

File the outside, toward the right. Look at the back of the ratchet holding the gun with sights up, the side to file is the one that is vertical. Be very careful, it is very easy to go too far and screw up the carry-up Be sure to not introduce a bevel in any direction.


A Barrett file is correct. It does not have to be a diamond file, the ratchets cut easily with a standard steel file, but it has to be the right shape. I have been filing ratchets a lot of years, never owned any form of diamond file! This is one of the very few times I would disagree with Warren.

 

[Petrov]

You can buy just the extractor without having to get a new cylinder.

The hand is hard tool steel. The ratchets are soft steel. All the wear occurs on the ratchets. The ratchets are (usually) all the same when new. The best way to deal with this is to make the hand thinner to fit the ratchets. Then, as time goes on, and the ratchets wear down, you can just use a wider hand to bring everything back to spec. It's much quicker and easier to make one hand fit all the ratchets than to make all the ratchets fit the hand.

In order to file the hand, you have to use a diamond file. A regular file literally won't cut it. You only file the left side of the nose of the hand, nowhere else. Lay the file and hand on the bench or other flat surface to get it flat lengthways and sideways. Then raise the file up without tilting it from that orientation and file a bit on the hand nose. Put the hand back on the trigger and the hand and trigger back in the gun and check your progress by cycling the action. You can speed up the process by leaving the hand on the trigger during filing.

If you file too much on the hand, it's cheap and easy to get another hand and try again. If you file one ratchet wrong, you have to get a new extractor (again).

You can get a set of diamond needle files for $10 or $15. Even the cheap Chinese ones work fine.

The wear on my original ratchet is wildly different on two ratchets compared to the rest.
New hand and new ratchet is something that I dont mind screwing up.
The carry up on my old hand and ratchet slowly got bad as the rounds and dry fire piled on.

 

[Petrov]

File the outside, toward the right. Look at the back of the ratchet holding the gun with sights up, the side to file is the one that is vertical. Be very careful, it is very easy to go too far and screw up the carry-up Be sure to not introduce a bevel in any direction.


A Barrett file is correct. It does not have to be a diamond file, the ratchets cut easily with a standard steel file, but it has to be the right shape. I have been filing ratchets a lot of years, never owned any form of diamond file! This is one of the very few times I would disagree with Warren.

Thank you.
Also looking at my old ratchet I have some ratchet teeth that have a pronounced bevel between the vertical and the horizontal part of the tooth. Radiused corner instead of sharp.

 

[armorer951]

The attached photo shows the position of the hand as the cylinder carries up. Enough material will have to be removed to allow the hand to "pass by" the ratchet after carry up has occurred. You'll want to be careful to keep the barrette file cutting surface away from the extractor boss too. You don't want to damage the boss if possible. It's necessary to push the ratchet away from the face of the cylinder using the extractor rod while pre-positioning the file and cutting.

Material is removed, if necessary, from the contact side (the extreme right side in this photo) of the ratchet "A" shown in the photo. The extent to which each ratchet needs to be altered will be slightly and individually different.

Remember that you can see the hand's movement and the ratchet's position by looking through the hand window as the trigger is slowly pulled, and the hand moves up. Don't work the action under spring pressure with the sideplate off.

When you get close to the end of the process, make sure you test each ratchet's position with empty casings in the cylinder. This will help to keep you from over-cutting.

 

[Petrov]

The attached photo shows the position of the hand as the cylinder carries up. Enough material will have to be removed to allow the hand to "pass by" the ratchet after carry up has occurred. You'll want to be careful to keep the barrette file cutting surface away from the extractor boss too. You don't want to damage the boss if possible.

Material is removed, if necessary, from the contact side (the extreme right side in this photo) of the ratchet "A" shown in the photo. The extent to which each ratchet needs to be altered will be slightly and individually different.

Remember that you can see the hand's movement and the ratchet's position by looking through the hand window as the trigger is slowly pulled, and the hand moves up. Don't work the action under spring pressure with the sideplate off.

When you get close to the end of the process, make sure you test each ratchet's position with empty casings in the cylinder. This will help to keep you from over-cutting.

Thank you very much for the very informative illustration. Also thank you for the brass tip, I didnt even think about that one.

 

[paulj84003]

years ago the factory used a tool called a plainning hand it was used with a tool made from a trigger with a lever out to the side so the hand could be run up and down with the lever to remove the excess material I still have one of the special hands for K frame somewhere in my shop. this was followed with a barret file to finish the ratchet if necessary

 

[BKLooney]

Out of my league..makes me nervous to even think about doing this job!

 

[Nightowl]

Before I used a new ratchet, I would try a wider hand, to see if it could be repaired with only the wider hand. Cheaper than using a new ratchet. It that does not work, you can always use the new ratchet. You did not say if you have a 6 or 8 shot 627. I have never seen an 8 shot hand for sale.

 

[jkmo]

This is the hardest repair / adjustment on a S@W revolver. Better leave this to the professionals

 

[steelslaver]

You don't learn anything leaving it to the professionals, There are fewer and few REVOLVER smiths. It is not impossible, it is not some sort of black magic. It is a whole lot of short strokes with a file held correctly.

 

[WR Moore]

Steelslaver is sooooo right. Doing an action job on a S&W revolver is mechanically simple, but only if you know how the parts work together. Over decades I've seen a lot of evidence that those who do are far outnumbered by those who don't. Come to think of it, that's not restricted to S&W or action work.

Prior to the Kuhnhausen manuals, there was a lot of bad information passed around, including inside "Gunsmithing" books published by well known sources. You have to remember that editors may/may not be technically competent. I can recall a screamer where an author raved about the precision of such and such a company that had to invent a new measurement called a "mil". For those who aren't machinists, "mil" is a short form term used for "thousandths" of an inch. 1/10th of a mil is 0.0001 in.

 

[jmiles1960]

Thanks to the help of folks on this forum like Armour951 and Steelslaver, I built a Victory revolver from a box of parts, including the fitting of a new ratchet. It can be done! Patience, the correct tools (file) and an understanding of the mechanics / operation of the revolver are paramount. As suggested, remove the main spring and sideplate and watch / understand the motion and operation between the hand and ratchet. I did one chamber at a time, using a piece of tape on the outside of the cylinder as a reference. When you get the first chamber working, you'll be on your way! Seriously, it took me hours of filing and retries, but well worth it. BTW, I used dykem (sp) marking fluid a few times along the way. Might help you as well. Keep asking questions and good luck!

 

[Mercury]

I agree with Steelslaver and WR Moore, just have a good understanding on what you're about to do and take your time.

Hopefully, these can serve as another visual aid on where to file. They are of my J-frame and my first attempt at filing the ratchets.

The first photo shows the last raw ratchet in red highlighter and the blue ratchet that was last completed.

The next shows the washer that I used to protect the rear of the cylinder as I filed. It was one less thing for me to keep an eye on.

The last two are of an altered side plate that I sacrificed so that I could cycle the action and watch how the hand interacted with each ratchet without it stressing the hammer and trigger studs. I had removed the hammer spring also.
I was concerned with taking too much off and it let me check on my progress, a few strokes at a time.

 

[steelslaver]

There is only one way to actually learn and that is to do.

Yes, it would be great to go to an armorers school. Few of us get such an opportunity. But, even then if you just sat there and watched you wouldn't be on the same plane as having done it until you actually do it.


Yes, you might mess up a ratchet. The new style ones sell for about $40 and the older ones can be found with little difficulty. You can find J, K, N frame cylinders for under $100. Way cheaper than any gun smith IF you can find an actual REVOLVER smith

Remember when they first started making revolvers they used lathes and mills ran by belts off a main shaft. Yet, they made those tiny screws, rifled barrels, and every other part needed besides fit cylinders.

Contrary to the beliefs of many a good file is a precision tool

You can bet you sweet biffy that the greatest gunsmith of all time, John M Browning, did a lot of work with files and he would have loved to have had a Dremel tool

 

[chief38]

I too agree with Steelslaver! Every year it gets harder, more expensive and more of a hassle to ship guns out to be repaired. Wait times also have gotten absurd! Although you risk the possibility of screwing it up and having to buy another part, once you do it you will no loner be at he mercy of so called "Pro's". And...... I have had so called "Pro's" ruin a few guns!

I never went to Armorer's school either but have fixed all my own for about 40+ years. I will admit to a few tiny screw-ups along the way and had to buy another part but never anything major. Hey, that is how one learns!

 

[stu1ritter]

Here is the page from the S&W Armorer's manual on filing the ratchets.

Stu

 

[steelslaver]

I can see where a the right size Barret file would beat out a small flat file. I have quite a few small knife edge files which would also work if safed on back side.

But I am seriously thinking about making the tool posted by toyman in the other thread. 686+ Ratchet Teeth

I have some of extra triggers and hands. It looks like the pivot pin maybe oversized. But, I would think that if f the hand pivot is smaller than the trigger stud, the hand pivot should break before the stud. On a new gun or replacement cylinder I have felt the hand scrape by on a tight tooth and after a few passes it is fine.

I have a whole dresser drawer full of homemade revolver tools anyway

 

[steelslaver]

Another thought on "action jobs".

I have changed barrels, cylinders, reamed cylinders, fit cylinders, changed springs. Cleaned up high spots on the bosses and where rebound slide moves, adjusted end shake and installed trigger and hammer shims, replaced hands and stops and adjusted the DA sear or fly. I know how to stone the SA sear if it has push off

I have never found the need to mess with the sear surfaces on a trigger or hammer to get a smoother trigger pull

\Did it, but I have no ratchets that need cut at this time. LOL

 

[Mercury]

Steelslaver, moss doesn't grow under your feet; that was fast.
That's pretty cool that you fabricated this after looking at the pictures of one. I'd love to see it in use....hint, hint.

 

[steelslaver]

It is now in the mail to another forum member.

In actuality it is just a real long trigger that increases your leverage. K,L and N frames all use the same trigger. The jogs in the lever are so that the extension added to the trigger clears the trigger guard.

I took a spare trigger I had removed the rebound slide toggle and welded on an extension similar to the on in the one toyman showed in another thread. the hand spring is still in the trigger and you must install the correct hand for your frame size. Then install in a frame. Need the cylinder stop and bolt to lock up cylinder, but do not need hammer or rebound slide and spring. Side plate needs to be on to fully support the trigger stud. Pulling back on lever is just like pulling the trigger, it trips cylinder stop and cylinder turns into position and the stop locks it up same as always. IF the ratchet tooth is long instead of the hand slipping by the tooth, the top chisel like edge on top of the hand will be caught against the high part of tooth. The hand is very hard and the ratchet is soft. Then the added leverage gives you enough mechanical advantage that the edge of the soft ratchet is peeled of by the top of the hard hand. Very similar to a hard cold chisel being drove against a small corner of soft steel. As the hands pivot pin is smaller than the trigger stud and only supported in one spot on the hand it should break well before the larger OD trigger stud which is supported by the frame and the side plate.

Ideally one could have several thickness hands for each frame size. Use the tool with thinnest hand until tool runs smooth, meaning it has shaved all the teeth as much as it is going to, then try your trigger and hand. If it goes your done. If not install thicker hand in tool and run it again.

I have had new guns or replaced a cylinder and found a hitch in the trigger right after the gun cylinder locks up, but before the hammer falls. The hand is against a slightly high ratchet tooth. If you simply dry fire it repeatedly, the hand will do just what the tool does and shave a tiny bit off any slightly tight teeth. That or a few passes with a fine diamond file and no more hitch. Occasionally you will find small burs on top of new ratchet teeth. The hand rubbing the side of tooth did it. A swipe or 2 on top of those teeth with a stone or fine diamond file cleans them right off. The ratchet teeth should and can be slightly lower than the center button around the tip of the center pin. That center button is what holds the cylinder's pressed back headspace. That is not the top of the ratchet teeth job. The fit between end of yoke tube and bottom of center pivot hole in cylinder is what holds pressed forward head space. The barrel is fit to the cylinder, not the cylinder to the barrel to get proper B?C gap

Revolvers are so interesting. Simple parts doing precision operations. All with just enough clearances to operate smoothly.

The trigger does 4 things when you begin pulling it back. It pulls the stop down as the hand begins to turn the cylinder, and also presses on the DA fly to start to rotate the hammer back. It also slides back the rebound slide. The front tip of the trigger releases the stop very quickly so it's tooth can pop up ready to ride into the lead in to its stop notch. The stop has a oval hole so it can slide out of the way enough to clear that tip when trigger is released. The DA sear clears the trigger and the trigger is begins to directly rolling the hammer back to near the end of it sear. As the trigger keeps moving the hand pushes the ratchet and revolves the cylinder to the point the stop pops into its notch and then the hand slides by edge the tooth and then the trigger releases the hammer to rotate forward and strike the hammer. Boom, the bullet leaves the case and jumps into the forcing cone and as it bridges that gap that the tiny bit of slack in the stop to stop notch fit allows cylinder and bore to become even more closely aligned as the base of the bullet is still in the throat as the body of the bullet begins to engage the rifling. Accuracy!

The amount of simple genius in the design is amazing. Toggles, springs, levers, axles and pins all working together.

The only real changes in how the action itself operates from S&W's very first double action top break revolvers to the current ones is modifications to how the springs operate the trigger, hammer, DA fly and hand. I simply can not imagine the absolute need for machining ability needed to make them 150 years ago. Rivaled only by watch makers IMHO

 

[Johnny686+]

As usual, the Man himself (steelslaver), comes through once again with the most accurate, detailed and experienced information !!!

We are lucky to have Guys like him, as well as so many others aboard this forum !

I am a new member and I am so impressed with all the Great Guys here that are so willing to help !!!!

Thanks to all,
John

 

[steelslaver]

I am not the man. Lots know more than me and know way more. A lot of what I know came from others right here.

 

[jack the toad]

I'm thankful for all the knowledge and the willingness to share it.

 

[CalifEd]

FYI all,
eBay has a couple of copies left of the, Smith & Wesson Armorer Repair Manual - Revolvers - Brand NEW!! that may be of interest.
It has a note of 1984? so it my not the most current revolvers but it has a lot of good info for the folks interested in the internals.

 

[steelslaver]

Yes, it and Kuhnhausen's S&W book are loaded with information

I do content that the very best thing one can do is buy and old beater model 10 and then start collecting and changing parts on it. Put in another cylinder. Install another hammer, trigger, hand, cylinder stop. yoke. Get brave and take off the barrel and replace it or another shorter or longer one. Mess with the springs and the main spring screw length.

If you take 2 hardwood board and inlet them a bit and then clamp them on the frame with a decent C clamp and then stick the barrel in a vise padded with 2 more pieces of hardwood you can get the barrel off without damaging the frame. The torque just isn't that high. Look at the tool the factory uses in the pro department at about the 4 minute mark. Just a large padded fork that they use to turn it the last 90 degrees.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8[/ame]

I made a frame wrench and use it. But the barrels, pinned or non pinned are just not all that tight