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1911 - Tired, Old, Unreliable Pistol Past It's Prime?
- Thread starter Puller
- Start date
Wow, I sure wish I had read what Mr. Vickers had to say before I bought myself my Christmas present. People carry 5 or 6 in a revolver, but 7 in a 45 is not enough? I suppose the 30-06 is obsolete too. Just take your 1911, fill it with 230 gr. hardball (that it was designed for) and shoot with confidence. GI's did that in WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam., and there are a lot of dead enemy combatants to prove it.
BTW; Shiney officer's acp is 1985, and been tuned by Colt Custom Shop. Govt Model Xmas present to me
BTW; Shiney officer's acp is 1985, and been tuned by Colt Custom Shop. Govt Model Xmas present to me
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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Double stacks are OK if they fit your hands. My experience with the M1911 is that thanks to JMB's genius it is a very modular design, very little that new springs, a new ejector, new barrel can't solve. And a good cleaning now and then. I prefer my handguns as stock as possible.
Freedom of choice and speech- what a country!
Happy New Year to all on this great Forum! What a great country we live in. The OP appears to have zip military or LEO experience and is certainly free to express his opinion on anything, but with that said I guess I can too:
1966: I do not recall Uncle Sam (or Sgt. Negron or the LT either) giving me any "choice" of what I wanted to carry..it was a 1911A1. Yep..that is a period. I also don't recall that it was any heavier than the bayonet, scabbard, first-aid kit, mag pouch(es) for the 1911, two canteens and the rest of that stuff we all humped, whether Prick-6, M79, M-14 E2, M60 ammo as an AG...
There were thousands just like me...many of you on this Forum..you remember any choice of what to carry?
1971: 1st free choice of EDC, my pick? Model 36, then 60, up to today 637-2. No gunfights, some questionable situations, 5 rounds always seemed to be enough but now-a-days extra speed strip in pocket.
1961 to present day: Always loved the 1911A1..from the moment one came to our house from DCM for the sum total of $12.62 (shipping included). An Ithaca all original. All in between (Colt's, Remington Rand's, Colt Argentine) gone now except for the Ithaca, but all loved, and shot, and enjoyed for their history and value that made this country what it is. A zillion GI's of all branches carried this platform through so many conflicts..all so the OP and others can express an opinion flaming them.
Like I said......free country, free speech.
Honk if you love it! Honk twice if you like 1911's
Happy New Year to all on this great Forum! What a great country we live in. The OP appears to have zip military or LEO experience and is certainly free to express his opinion on anything, but with that said I guess I can too:
1966: I do not recall Uncle Sam (or Sgt. Negron or the LT either) giving me any "choice" of what I wanted to carry..it was a 1911A1. Yep..that is a period. I also don't recall that it was any heavier than the bayonet, scabbard, first-aid kit, mag pouch(es) for the 1911, two canteens and the rest of that stuff we all humped, whether Prick-6, M79, M-14 E2, M60 ammo as an AG...
There were thousands just like me...many of you on this Forum..you remember any choice of what to carry?
1971: 1st free choice of EDC, my pick? Model 36, then 60, up to today 637-2. No gunfights, some questionable situations, 5 rounds always seemed to be enough but now-a-days extra speed strip in pocket.
1961 to present day: Always loved the 1911A1..from the moment one came to our house from DCM for the sum total of $12.62 (shipping included). An Ithaca all original. All in between (Colt's, Remington Rand's, Colt Argentine) gone now except for the Ithaca, but all loved, and shot, and enjoyed for their history and value that made this country what it is. A zillion GI's of all branches carried this platform through so many conflicts..all so the OP and others can express an opinion flaming them.
Like I said......free country, free speech.
Honk if you love it! Honk twice if you like 1911's
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ericrlarson
Member
IMO, there is no other pistol more aesthetically pleasing than a 1911. I do not doubt that there are better pistols out there for combat and self defense. However, in many shooting sports, 1911’s rule the roost.
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This old hunk of junk seems to work pretty well, but perhaps I should send it back to the CMP anyway. Nah, I'll keep it.
double-dipper
Member
Larry Vickers Who? Never heard of the guy. If I was taking a firearms class and the instructor was bad mouthing the 1911, I'd ask for my money back.
Obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about!
Puller, its simple if you don't like 1911's don't buy one!
Obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about!
Puller, its simple if you don't like 1911's don't buy one!
Well I carried a 1911 in the 1980s..... then I discovered 3rd Gen S&Ws and P Series Sigs.
Owned 3 Glocks..... have stuck with the Smiths and Sigs as they work for me!! As a civilian concealed carrier I prefer the DA/SA trigger for self-defense.
The Smiths are no longer made so why would he recommend them... P Series Sigs cost 3X a Glock.
Bill Wilson recommends 1911s and Berettas.
Ernest Langdon recommends Berettas.
Vickers has a Glock special Edition........
Follow the money!!!!!!!!!
Owned 3 Glocks..... have stuck with the Smiths and Sigs as they work for me!! As a civilian concealed carrier I prefer the DA/SA trigger for self-defense.
The Smiths are no longer made so why would he recommend them... P Series Sigs cost 3X a Glock.
Bill Wilson recommends 1911s and Berettas.
Ernest Langdon recommends Berettas.
Vickers has a Glock special Edition........
Follow the money!!!!!!!!!
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To flip the coin, some have a real or imagined problem with the 1911. I know his statement about the cost to achieve reliability is false in my experience. Like any gun, they sometimes can benefit from some tuning. But to claim that the design, after 110 years, is inherently unreliable is a bit much.
The fans/detractors of any platform can cherry-pick reasons to justify their position. I've seen Glocks with problems too. I wonder if he would prefer a revolver over a 1911?
He's just "talking his book". He doesn't want to teach users of 1911's. It probably simplifies his life if everybody's carrying the same platform.
The fans/detractors of any platform can cherry-pick reasons to justify their position. I've seen Glocks with problems too. I wonder if he would prefer a revolver over a 1911?
He's just "talking his book". He doesn't want to teach users of 1911's. It probably simplifies his life if everybody's carrying the same platform.
Folks, to quote Paul Harvey, "And now, here's the rest of the story."
Of course Vickers is going to say that. Why? Simple. Because the Wilson Combat Vickers Elite 1911 goes for $3990. Why the heck do you think he would say you need to spend at least $3500 for a 1911? It's because he gets a kick back for every Vickers 1911 Wilson Combat sells.
So, it stands to reason that Larry is not going to endorse a purely functional and reliable Rock Island 1911 for $499 because he doesn't get any money from that.
Now you're saying, "Golly, Larry Vickers is ex-Delta Force and he's written some books therefore he must know what he's talking about, but I can't afford $3500, so Larry says I need to buy a Glock"
Guess what! There's also a Glock Vickers Elite package going for a mere $1490! Such a bargain. Whaddya want to bet good ol' Larry gets a kick back on that, too!
And I'll bet that if you enclose an extra twenty-five bucks, Larry will send you an autographed picture with the words, "To my good friend (fill in your name), from your ex-Delta Force pal, Larry Vickers."
So, bottom line...the only reason Larry says what he says is strictly because he's lining his pockets. Pure and simple. What a bozo!
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I was introduced to the 1911 and 1911A1 pistols in 1953 when I was in JROTC. I got to shoot them some back then and they worked just fine. I can completely take them apart with no tools whatsoever, and put them back together the same way.
I bought my first one in 1961, and have a stable of them now. All of them work just fine, thank you - and some date back to 1914.
My wife's stepfather carried one in Korea as his only armament when he was trapped behind enemy lines. Never heard him complain that his gun was unreliable.
I really don't choose to heed someone named Vickers. I much prefer accept an opinion from a guy named Cooper - I've been reading his common sense writings since the early 1960s; can't say that he's ever been wrong on much.
These are my "go to" carry pistols. They all work with anything I feed them, from lead semiwadcutters to hollow points to hardball. While any caliber from .22 on up can be lethal, if the chips were down and I had my druthers, I think the .45 ACP has proved itself time and time again.
Here's what I carry when I want to be double-damn sure of reliability and effectiveness.
John
I bought my first one in 1961, and have a stable of them now. All of them work just fine, thank you - and some date back to 1914.
My wife's stepfather carried one in Korea as his only armament when he was trapped behind enemy lines. Never heard him complain that his gun was unreliable.
I really don't choose to heed someone named Vickers. I much prefer accept an opinion from a guy named Cooper - I've been reading his common sense writings since the early 1960s; can't say that he's ever been wrong on much.
These are my "go to" carry pistols. They all work with anything I feed them, from lead semiwadcutters to hollow points to hardball. While any caliber from .22 on up can be lethal, if the chips were down and I had my druthers, I think the .45 ACP has proved itself time and time again.
Here's what I carry when I want to be double-damn sure of reliability and effectiveness.
John
boatbum101
Member
A point that most ignore is the 1911 is a maintainance intensive platform for a Working / Duty gun . To keep a mess of them up & working is a chore . Many parts are considered consumables & need routine replacement for reliable duty . Not a concern for most of us , assuming one is willing to accept its requirements . Unfortunately most won't or can't , in that case striker-fired tuperware would be a better choice . FWIW it aint as offensive when they stamp a case / evidence # on a plastic wonder vs one of yer 1911's .
Marshal Tom
Member
Larry Vickers and Ken Hackenthorn are known in the gun culture as two of the leading experts on the 1911 in particular and Larry Vickers is probably one of the leading experts on military and small arms. He has written several books, one of which is specifically on the 1911. He is an armorer and teaches classes, or did on building 1911 pistols, built and repaired pistols for the Marines etc. He carried and shot them in competition for years as well. To say that he doesn't know what he is talking about would be a stretch! That being said, I think he was making the point that 1911's require more maintenance than newer striker fired type weapons and that if you are not willing to do that, or want the simplicity of say a Glock, then go that direction. He has stated that a 1911 must be kept lubed, (run wet) in order for it to function properly. He has said that they will run dirty but they must be lubed.
I love 1911's. I have owned and carried many over the years and carried a 1911 by choice for probably 25 of my 36 years in LE. I still love them and always will. I have also never felt under gunned when carrying one in spite of the fact that I have several other, more modern, higher capacity choices.
I will also state that I have had very few malfunctions with any of my 1911's even with hollow points which I have carried for years in all of my 1911's I am not one who believed that to make one reliable, you must carry ball ammo only.
I love 1911's. I have owned and carried many over the years and carried a 1911 by choice for probably 25 of my 36 years in LE. I still love them and always will. I have also never felt under gunned when carrying one in spite of the fact that I have several other, more modern, higher capacity choices.
I will also state that I have had very few malfunctions with any of my 1911's even with hollow points which I have carried for years in all of my 1911's I am not one who believed that to make one reliable, you must carry ball ammo only.
RWPBR
Member
I don't know about your life situation but I am extremely unlikely to require more than 7 rounds of ammo in any given self defense occasion...unless I'm at war and then Uncle Sugar will give me an M4
I own plenty of higher capacity pistols including a G17 but capacity does not define obsolescence.
Maybe it is a strategy to dump on the 1911 to increase sales and start a series of debates, and it obviously works. Most of my experience with autos is with a BHP which I carried for over 40 years. There were times when I did use a 1911 and it was always 100% reliable. The 1911 has that reputation over many years and much usage. Were I young again and could not have my BHP the 1911 would be my top choice with 9mm first, then 45.
RWPBR
Member
So does a muzzle-loader. Or a blunderbuss. Or a spear.
We are talking about Pistols specifically not weapons in general.
Couldn't agree more, let the folks go with the high end 1911s or the striker fired polymers and THAT suits me just fine. Means there'll be more 1911 availability for yours truly. I enjoy my 1911s more than any other type handguns that I own. My RIA 1911 is a very solid shooter that I paid just over $400.00 for. It's a no-frills no BS handgun and will run every single type of .45ACP that I've put through it. I've not paid more than $1000.00 for any of my 1911s and you'll get no complaints from me as to their fit, finish and reliability.
Never heard of Larry Vickers. Don't know Him, don't care to. Been shooting and carrying 1911s since 75. Still carry a full size 1911. Each Their own when it comes to choice of weapons. As far as mentors are concerned, I'll stick with Col. Cooper.
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