J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

[shawn mccarver]

Thanks to Justice Thomas we just got carry rights in my state!
The hitch: We have to qualify with carry guns, including making some 25 yard shots.

After spending many hours reading some of the threads here (A huge thank you to all the guys who have shared their thoughts and compiled knowledge on this board over the years!)

I'm thinking of:
- A Model 36 classic
- A 637 performance center
- A 360PD

Something light, pocket-carry worthy, and with a hammer (for purposes of longer shots, SA would make it easier at my "skilled but not Jerry Miculek with a J-frame skilled" shooting level).
Budget isn't a dealbreaker for me - I would prefer to buy new if I could.

In my state we cannot carry with hollow points, so I'm thinking I might actually be best served with wadcutters for practice AND carry, making the recoil of a 360PD more bareable.

Thoughts?

A couple of thoughts.

First, if you use the technique first put forth by our friend Mas Ayoob, pocket carry with an exposed hammer is not a problem. Put your thumb on the hammer during the presentation and the thumb basically turns the snub into a Centennial.

Secondly, back when a snub was the preferred option for pocket carry, it was possible, with sufficient practice, to do pretty well even at 25 yards.

That said, the SIG Sauer P365 is like carrying two J Frames (and with the 12-round magazine two Colt D Frames), and it is much easier to make 25 yard shots with the P365. There are other good choices for pocket carry that make those 25 yard shots easier than with the J Frame. I still like the J Frames, but mostly for the nostalgia.

 

[sipowicz]

To carry my model 60 (bobbed hammer) I had to qual at 25 yards. Got a 258 out of 300. 210 was passing. A decent trigger job really helps double action.

 

[AJ]

Qualifying with a 2" J-Frame can be accomplished. Takes some skill and practice. I was assigned to Naval Station Long Beach as the Marine Cadre (Auxiliary Security Force Trainer/Advisor). After watching me teach a class the senior CPO's in the Security Department told the Security Officer that I needed to replace their present range master. Once that was done, I decided that I needed to qualify with all the handguns that were used within the security department. They had M1911's, S&W K-Frames, Ruger Security Six's , and S&W J-Frames. I qual'd with all, and with the 2" J-Frame I shot a 240 out of 240. Their course was at 15 and 25 yards.

 

[sbrmike]

I carry a full hammer model 37 Airweight square butt every day. I have Zero issues with the exposed hammer. I shoot 158 grain Lead Semi-Wad Cutters in mine. You have to practice more with any short barrel compared to longer barrels. It will do the job if you put forth the effort.

The shrouded hammer would be an option if you can cock it easily enough to qualify.

 

[benf1]

Dutch87,
I'm in NJ and qualified with my Shield 45. It's my understanding that you have to qualify with each gun you intend to carry, and they are listed on the permit. I submitted everything end of August. Hornady Critical Duty and Defense are permitted in NJ, but don't take my word for it, check out the NJSP website. Only a very few are receiving permits as it seems most judges are not complying.If I actually do get my permit I plan on qualifying with my 642 as well, and have it added to the permit. Most of the quals are as you described, so you could miss 25 yds. as long as you make the others. To me the Q target was pretty big (I wear glasses too) so be confident and you'll do fine. Since I don't know if it's appropriate to list other gun forums here if you pm me I can send you a link to one dealing with NJ gun people that discusses the application/qualification process in detail.
Stay safe,
Ben

 

[Dutch87]

" get it machined for a frontsight if possible, "

I just put a spot of orange Neon Pop fingernail polish on the stock front sight. Works great.

I've been pocket carrying J-frames with external hammers for 60 years. So far, hammer snag hasn't been a problem. I don't think I'm gonna worry much about it becoming one.

Alright! This is pretty reassuring
#Hammer Time

 

[Dutch87]

To carry my model 60 (bobbed hammer) I had to qual at 25 yards. Got a 258 out of 300. 210 was passing. A decent trigger job really helps double action.

That's a reason I'm leaning toward the 637PC - I can get something with the action being smoother right out of the box. Saves me ~1,500 dry fires to smooth the action ( the number I see the experienced gentlemen here say!). So the 1,500 dryfires into snapcaps I do before the range are with a "finished" trigger.

Qualifying with a 2" J-Frame can be accomplished. Takes some skill and practice. I was assigned to Naval Station Long Beach as the Marine Cadre (Auxiliary Security Force Trainer/Advisor). After watching me teach a class the senior CPO's in the Security Department told the Security Officer that I needed to replace their present range master. Once that was done, I decided that I needed to qualify with all the handguns that were used within the security department. They had M1911's, S&W K-Frames, Ruger Security Six's , and S&W J-Frames. I qual'd with all, and with the 2" J-Frame I shot a 240 out of 240. Their course was at 15 and 25 yards.

That's excellent. If I can pass, that would be excellent - if I throw up a perfect score, I'm running back here for high-fives

"You guys were right!!"

 

[Dutch87]

I carry a full hammer model 37 Airweight square butt every day. I have Zero issues with the exposed hammer. I shoot 158 grain Lead Semi-Wad Cutters in mine. You have to practice more with any short barrel compared to longer barrels. It will do the job if you put forth the effort.

The shrouded hammer would be an option if you can cock it easily enough to qualify.

Fantastic - that's effectively what I'm going to try to do!

Why the 158 semi-wadcutters vs full-wadcutters, if I may so ask?

 

[Dutch87]

Dutch87,
I'm in NJ and qualified with my Shield 45. It's my understanding that you have to qualify with each gun you intend to carry, and they are listed on the permit. I submitted everything end of August. Hornady Critical Duty and Defense are permitted in NJ, but don't take my word for it, check out the NJSP website. Only a very few are receiving permits as it seems most judges are not complying.If I actually do get my permit I plan on qualifying with my 642 as well, and have it added to the permit. Most of the quals are as you described, so you could miss 25 yds. as long as you make the others. To me the Q target was pretty big (I wear glasses too) so be confident and you'll do fine. Since I don't know if it's appropriate to list other gun forums here if you pm me I can send you a link to one dealing with NJ gun people that discusses the application/qualification process in detail.
Stay safe,
Ben

Fantastic choice IMHO, with no hollowpoints (aside from the ones on the NJSP website, and even then a lot of people don't want to be "the test case"), .45's a great choice.

I'm looking at a few other places for the Carry/qually info stuff, I may have seen your posts there!

I kinda felt like, "Hey if qualifying at 25 with the J-frame is a silly idea, I think the S&W forum guys would know best and would be willing to say so."

I wonder if they're true, the stories of guys applying and getting redflagged by over-zealous bureaucrats.
Getting FIDs, getting Pistol Purchase permits, finger printed, all that. A non-disqualifier gets found later right as they're trying to NOT give out carry permits? Red-flag, guns gone.

 

[sipowicz]

This may be blasphemy but if I were buying a new 5 shot it would be the Ruger. Amazing trigger out of the box compared to a j frame.

 

[AJ]

I kinda felt like, "Hey if qualifying at 25 with the J-frame is a silly idea, I think the S&W forum guys would know best and would be willing to say so."

A J-Frame with a 2" barrel is really an "up close & personal" gun, read 7 yards or closer for most folks. Been able to qualifying with it at 25 yards take practice and skill. We used a 7 inch bullseye for our course of fire for shooting badges. For qualifying to carry for security we used a B-5 target. I was able to hit 24 10's at 15 and 25 yards with a 2' Model 36. So it can be done. For me that was over 30 years ago, could I do it now? Probably could hit the target at those ranges but a perfect score.........No.

 

[sbrmike]

I use 158 grain LSWC for a couple of reasons.
1. 158 grains is what I prefer for across the board shooting - hunting, personal defense. I also use in my 357 Mag loads
2. LSWC load better from a Speed Loader or Zip Strip
Other reasons escape me right now

148 grain are great for target shooting as they take up a lot of air space and make the lighter charges more accurate than if they had all of that air space. 158 LSWC are just more versatile. 158 round nose don't make a big enough hole. They are sometimes self sealing.

 

[malph]

When I still carried a model 36 as a backup on the job, I'd have to qualify with it quarterly along with my semi-autos and long guns.

Handguns were out to 25 yards, and as I recall, there were only six rounds at that distance. So, it wasn't that bad, especially if you practice a bit.

Good luck.

(These days I carry my J-frame 642-1 around home and walking distances from home, but a larger (compact) semi-auto when I leave home.)

How big was the target?

 

[Dutch87]

Just an update and a thank you!
A Kimber K6 followed me home today
The serial number's first 3 numbers, 087.
Didn't plan that, just happened that way.

One of the ideas that made sense to me - having a heavier steel framed snubby revolver for practice, .357 use, and belt carry - and a lighter one for pocket carry.

For the "Steel frame ~22oz still concealable J-frame size .357", I chose the Kimber K6, just a preference thing. I was close to a 640PC!
I'll probably fire a good deal of .38 before I think about .357, and enough .357 to be comfortable carrying it.

The double action pull is spec'd to be in that 9.5lb range, and wow am I floored by how stable a small gun can feel with a smooth trigger. I get it now.
I really get the sense that with practice they are very shootable - not fullsize duty guns, sure, but still shootable.

To be quite honest I'm actually thinking my second small revolver might be a 642 Performance Center.
If the trigger is "almost" as good as the DA on the K6 after smoothing up, it might be just the ticket!

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

25 yard shots off hand ( I assume) with a J Frame. The target is a wood door-right ??

On a good day I can hit my 24 in. gong 3 out of 5 at 100 yards from the bench with my 642. Don't under estimate the shorties. They are accurate at the distance IF YOU PRACTICE and hold "em" steady.

 

[glenwolde]

Hmmmm....State says you must qualify at 25 yards. I guess they think you can be justified in shooting people at 25 yards. I wonder if you could use that in your defense if you actually had to shoot someone that far away.
Just a random thought as I sit here.....

Sounds like a way (excuse) to disqualify people. I hardly ever see anybody shooting a handgun at 25 yards. When I do it people stare.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Hmmmm....State says you must qualify at 25 yards. I guess they think you can be justified in shooting people at 25 yards. I wonder if you could use that in your defense if you actually had to shoot someone that far away.
Just a random thought as I sit here.....

Depends on whether your opponent is shooting back.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I can hit a target at 25 yards. I choose not to because it's a waste of time and ammunition. I also practice point shooting, which is a fr more critical skill than distance shooting. Again, as always - YMMV

We all make choices and we often disagree - but that's what makes life fun.

Yep........When I am playing(shooting) I all my handguns from .22 UP out to 100 yards or more.........Try it.........You may surprise yourself.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Sounds like a way (excuse) to disqualify people. I hardly ever see anybody shooting a handgun at 25 yards. When I do it people stare.

Wow!!!.......That would get boring quick.

 

[MStarmer]

Back when I had to qualify 25yds always seemed to be the sticking point for most people, despite the generous time limits. Same with GSSF or other fun shoots, people always want to focus on the target looking for holes instead of focusing on the front sight. Don't overlook the need for updating a prescription if needed to accomplish this. As we get older we need to take every advantage, even if that's some shooting glasses with cheaters in the top of the lens. My PC642 has no issue with good hits at 25yds. All the body shots on this target were at 25yds.

 

[Nevada Ed]

If you think 25yds is too far for a J frame what is your thoughts of an N frame 44 at 200yds. Do not suggest that a 200yd shot is impossible to a silhouette shooter. He practices, what's your excuse?
jcelect

That is with stock, factory, iron sights, right ?

 

[Protocall_Design]

Yep - done it for years.

 

[Dutch87]

Back when I had to qualify 25yds always seemed to be the sticking point for most people, despite the generous time limits. Same with GSSF or other fun shoots, people always want to focus on the target looking for holes instead of focusing on the front sight. Don't overlook the need for updating a prescription if needed to accomplish this. As we get older we need to take every advantage, even if that's some shooting glasses with cheaters in the top of the lens. My PC642 has no issue with good hits at 25yds. All the body shots on this target were at 25yds.

The 442PC and 642PC are at the top of the list right about now!

 

[Dutch87]

Yep - done it for years.

What's your preferred J-frame, if I may so ask!

I have to say I'm glad I sought everybody's feedback, snubby revolver culture is awesome - and this coming from a 1911 guy.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The premise in post #171 was an N frame 44 Mag. with factory iron sights. I'm older now, with eyes to match, so now I use a crosshair scope on the 8-3/8" M629. In the August match, I scored 39 out of 40 with it, firing double action. Usually, I only get 34 to 38 on average. In many years of shooting Met. Sil. I have shot 2, 40 out of 40s always shooting double action. Anyone can shoot a 40 with an 8 ounce trigger single shot. There's no real challenge in that.

However, I have hit Rams at 200M with a 2" M15 and 38 special loads. Not every shot, but maybe average 1 in 6 or so. It takes 2 or 3 seconds for the bullet to get there. My preferred J frame is the 640.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

What's your preferred J-frame, if I may so ask!

I have to say I'm glad I sought everybody's feedback, snubby revolver culture is awesome - and this coming from a 1911 guy.

Hi Dutch,

Interesting thread and associated comments, some of which make sense, some of which less so.

I just re-acquired a CCW in Northern CA. I carried up here for years prior to moving to the Bay Area for quite a while. Upon retiring and returning to the North, I immediately became a member & Range Safety Officer at the close-by local outdoor range. I also ran into my former competition (USPSA) mentor (a USPSA Grand Master and in the top 10 nationally in Revolver Class). I started shooting steel plates once a week, drawing from the holster and am happy to say the skills didn't disappear entirely while I was shooting very little in the Bay Area.

CA requires that you qualify with each weapon you wish to carry, even if duplicative (i.e., 2 identical Glock 19s = 2 separate qualification sessions).

In addition to my 31 year old Glock 19, I qualified with a Kahr P45 and (pertinent to your thread), my old S&W Model 49 Bodyguard.

It is actually the gun I carry most often, in a leather pocket holster. No hammer to snag (bad joss to anyone claiming that is not a legitimate concern!), yet the hammer is there for those 25 yard shots. However, my law degree tells me that outside of the Indiana Mall situation, you are going to have a helluva time justifying a 25 yard shot!

Getting back into carrying involved some new learning as to gear, since the Glock is the only thing on my current permit that I also carried on my prior permit in this County many years ago.

I have decent quality IWB holsters for the Kahr & 49 (and updates for the Glock), but the leather pocket holster is SO convenient and it IS easy to draw from in the Duluth Cargo Pants I've adopted as my retiree attire. You can see how the gun disappears into the front (not the cargo) pocket without printing unless someone is really, really looking for it!

Every few weeks, after our Tuesday steel plate practice or our Thursday USPSA practice sessions, we will work out with our carry guns. So drawing from the pocket is not an abstract piece of BS I'm talking about re: the S&W.

Yes - attaining longer distance skill with the snubby you choose is wise & I would encourage it. However real world does say that the need for 25 yard snap multiple DA shots are highly unrealistic. Getting the gun out fast, getting the first shot off accurately at spitting distance or across the room distance, following up with a split second additional shot accurately, then accessing need/moving to secondary target if necessary and engaging, all while getting your butt off the X and preparing to reload - this is more real world stuff & more deserving of your concern.

Yeah, if I'm going out prolonged I'll probably have the Glock IWB carried with an extra 15 round mag, but for going to the local market and back I'm very comfy with the 49 and two speed strips. The 49 lives with 148 grain wadcutters in it. One speed loader has +P HP 38s (much easier to get into the cylinder in a hurry) and one has additional wadcutters (damn accurate & controllable, especially if one finds the single action cocked option advisable).

Good luck in your journey!

Dave

 

[Dutch87]

Hi Dutch,

Interesting thread and associated comments, some of which make sense, some of which less so.

I just re-acquired a CCW in Northern CA. I carried up here for years prior to moving to the Bay Area for quite a while. Upon retiring and returning to the North, I immediately became a member & Range Safety Officer at the close-by local outdoor range. I also ran into my former competition (USPSA) mentor (a USPSA Grand Master and in the top 10 nationally in Revolver Class). I started shooting steel plates once a week, drawing from the holster and am happy to say the skills didn't disappear entirely while I was shooting very little in the Bay Area.

CA requires that you qualify with each weapon you wish to carry, even if duplicative (i.e., 2 identical Glock 19s = 2 separate qualification sessions).

In addition to my 31 year old Glock 19, I qualified with a Kahr P45 and (pertinent to your thread), my old S&W Model 49 Bodyguard.

It is actually the gun I carry most often, in a leather pocket holster. No hammer to snag (bad joss to anyone claiming that is not a legitimate concern!), yet the hammer is there for those 25 yard shots. However, my law degree tells me that outside of the Indiana Mall situation, you are going to have a helluva time justifying a 25 yard shot!

Yes, I couldn't agree more on that last part.

IMHO a hammer in my mind is good for 4 things:
1) Shooting a paper target at distance
2) A mass shooter at distance
Just in my mind, almost any other scenario where someone is that far away, you might be able to get away and that is preferable.
Mass shooter is basically the exception.
3) Weak hand only shooting/if injured in a scuffle.
4) When re-holstering, you can see if the hammer moves (trigger snagged when re-holstering)

Let me just say I was extremely surprised by how nice the DA trigger was on my Kimber K6. Coming from a high end 1911, a 9.5lb double action pull on a ~20oz gun sounds crazy it really does.
But it's pretty smooth, and with a strong hold, it does appear to be workable without being on Jerry Miculek's skill level.
It's made me seriously consider the 642 an 442s.

I was also pleased to find that IWB carry isn't THAT hard, with the right holster, it was not as hard for me as I thought it would be.

I'm glad I've started the thread and had some new ideas pointed out by the gentlemen on this board. Snub-nose revolver culture is awesome

Getting back into carrying involved some new learning as to gear, since the Glock is the only thing on my current permit that I also carried on my prior permit in this County many years ago.

I have decent quality IWB holsters for the Kahr & 49 (and updates for the Glock), but the leather pocket holster is SO convenient and it IS easy to draw from in the Duluth Cargo Pants I've adopted as my retiree attire. You can see how the gun disappears into the front (not the cargo) pocket without printing unless someone is really, really looking for it!

It absolutely does, I'll have to look into the Duluths!
Man the old Model 49s look so cool, I know some find them ugly but. I'm really taking a liking to looking at them.
I'm thinking I want to get a 638 and get it cerakoted.

Every few weeks, after our Tuesday steel plate practice or our Thursday USPSA practice sessions, we will work out with our carry guns. So drawing from the pocket is not an abstract piece of BS I'm talking about re: the S&W.

Yes - attaining longer distance skill with the snubby you choose is wise & I would encourage it. However real world does say that the need for 25 yard snap multiple DA shots are highly unrealistic. Getting the gun out fast, getting the first shot off accurately at spitting distance or across the room distance, following up with a split second additional shot accurately, then accessing need/moving to secondary target if necessary and engaging, all while getting your butt off the X and preparing to reload - this is more real world stuff & more deserving of your concern.

Yeah, if I'm going out prolonged I'll probably have the Glock IWB carried with an extra 15 round mag, but for going to the local market and back I'm very comfy with the 49 and two speed strips. The 49 lives with 148 grain wadcutters in it. One speed loader has +P HP 38s (much easier to get into the cylinder in a hurry) and one has additional wadcutters (damn accurate & controllable, especially if one finds the single action cocked option advisable).

Good luck in your journey!

Dave

Thank you for sharing! To be honest I think we're on the same page on the snub platform preference. I really am thinking a 638 with wadcutters in it is what's for me.
I already picked up a set of CT 405 grips from CDNN for a price I couldn't believe - so those are ready to go.

If I may so ask, you have a preferred brand of wadcutter?

 

[JimCunn]

"IMHO a hammer in my mind is good for 4 things:
1) Shooting a paper target at distance
2) A mass shooter at distance
Just in my mind, almost any other scenario where someone is that far away, you might be able to get away and that is preferable.
Mass shooter is basically the exception.
3) Weak hand only shooting/if injured in a scuffle.
4) When re-holstering, you can see if the hammer moves (trigger snagged when re-holstering)"

I've only been shooting single action for 70 years, so I may not have the experience others do - but in my opinion, it's greatest benefit is that it both greatly speeds up the draw and also increases trigger control, resulting in faster presentation and better accuracy.

 

[walkin' trails]

25 yards with a J-frame is do-able. I shot my LEOSA qualification out to 25 with a 640 in .38 Special and wadcutters. Scored a 96 percent on a 50-round course. The course wasn't especially designed with five shot in mind.

I've got a Model 36 that, because the front sight (and unfortunately rear notch) are pretty narrow, it has a tendency to be the tightest shooting J-frame I have. I hope you can find wadcutters in sufficient enough supply to not only qualify and carry but also to practice with. And while you're at the practices stage (after you decide which one you want), unload the gun, check it twice, and dry fire, dry fire dry fire....

I used to have a Model 37. Bobbed the hammer. Wadcutters were tolerable. All else was hard to like.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

Re: "If I may so ask, you have a preferred brand of wadcutter?"

Hey Dutch,

My friend/mentor loads for me. They're a basic 148 grain full wad cutter. I don't know the mold he uses or the load, but it is a pretty standard power cartridge.