Well I have no dog in this fight, clip-magazine, but I am interested to learn what is the source of most correct established info regarding specialized firearm terms?
Would it come from a patent?
Would it come from a patent?
Minor rant about cylinder terms
- Thread starter Muley Gil
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.357magger
Member
As much as I love a clever turn of phrase, I think you also have to look at the root or genesis of a term. Magazine, in the context we're discussing, has both a nautical and military roots.
If you're claiming that clip and magazine are interchangeable, what do you call the area of a ship (or military installation) where ammunition or powder is stored?
Did the battleship Yamamoto in WW2 sink when it's clip was penetrated by bombs dropped by American aircraft? Nope. The bombs penetrated its magazine, a defined area and purpose of a military vessel.
Just one example, and there are others.
If you're claiming that clip and magazine are interchangeable, what do you call the area of a ship (or military installation) where ammunition or powder is stored?
Did the battleship Yamamoto in WW2 sink when it's clip was penetrated by bombs dropped by American aircraft? Nope. The bombs penetrated its magazine, a defined area and purpose of a military vessel.
Just one example, and there are others.
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Maybe, maybe not. It's a dictum in the patent law that a patentee is his own lexicographer. So as long as they define their terms in the application, they can names things whatever they like.
Did an application for a tea brewer and I called the thing holding the tea an "infundibulum" (Latin for funnel) because it sort of looked like a funnel. The marketing guys liked it so much, that's what they named the part in the manual.
Go figure.
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To me the correct usage of language is when the use gets the point being made across to the chosen audience in a clear and concise manner. An Doctorate of English using correct language when talking to a baby is being a moron.
It matters not one tiny bit that all your nomenclature was 100% correct if your target audience is unfamiliar with that nomenclature unless YOU spent the time to educate THAT audience on said nomenclature. The important part is the understanding not the exact language used to get there.
On a cylinder front and rear work much better than face unless front or rear is used as a prefix. If the audience does not understand front or rear of a gun your conversation really need to begin at a point other than about the cylinder.
To me things like yolk/crane, grip/stocks clip/magazine, revolver/pistol 45 "LONG" Colt etc are a bit nose in the air, "I am better versed than you" and often nothing but hard hard headedness. S&W has refereed to them as Grips, Revolvers were called pistols before semi autos even existed, The term long colt came into being because of 2 different length cartridges and even today the 45 automatic COLT pistol round is the short one of the 2. Do my fixed floor plate guns have a magazine to hold the rounds. What term is used to denote a removable magazine. To some it IS a clip. To someone on the east coast you drink a SODA, I drink POP. We laugh at each other but the important thing is we UNDERSTAND Terms like this only really harm the overly sensitive. In that case itt is my humble opinion the problem is more one of sensitivity than the actual term.
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It matters not one tiny bit that all your nomenclature was 100% correct if your target audience is unfamiliar with that nomenclature unless YOU spent the time to educate THAT audience on said nomenclature. The important part is the understanding not the exact language used to get there.
On a cylinder front and rear work much better than face unless front or rear is used as a prefix. If the audience does not understand front or rear of a gun your conversation really need to begin at a point other than about the cylinder.
To me things like yolk/crane, grip/stocks clip/magazine, revolver/pistol 45 "LONG" Colt etc are a bit nose in the air, "I am better versed than you" and often nothing but hard hard headedness. S&W has refereed to them as Grips, Revolvers were called pistols before semi autos even existed, The term long colt came into being because of 2 different length cartridges and even today the 45 automatic COLT pistol round is the short one of the 2. Do my fixed floor plate guns have a magazine to hold the rounds. What term is used to denote a removable magazine. To some it IS a clip. To someone on the east coast you drink a SODA, I drink POP. We laugh at each other but the important thing is we UNDERSTAND Terms like this only really harm the overly sensitive. In that case itt is my humble opinion the problem is more one of sensitivity than the actual term.
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Green Frog
Member
A comment on the use of the term “platform”... I just used it in a discussion on another gun related forum because it was the easiest and most understandable term I could think of, and that is, after all, why we use words.
Then I felt guilty after thinking of this thread so I looked through several dictionaries (Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, etc) and the closest usage I could find in any of them was from computer speak. However, the term is in very common use in describing the design of cars and guns. I have to agree that language is a growing, changing entity, and today’s misuse may become tomorrow’s standard. Back to the original statement, words express a thought in such a way the listener is likely to understand the meaning of the speaker. I will continue to use the term “platform” when appropriate and just risk the disdain of the purists.
Green Frog
(Originator of term “6-screw” for leaf spring I frames)
Then I felt guilty after thinking of this thread so I looked through several dictionaries (Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, etc) and the closest usage I could find in any of them was from computer speak. However, the term is in very common use in describing the design of cars and guns. I have to agree that language is a growing, changing entity, and today’s misuse may become tomorrow’s standard. Back to the original statement, words express a thought in such a way the listener is likely to understand the meaning of the speaker. I will continue to use the term “platform” when appropriate and just risk the disdain of the purists.
Green Frog
(Originator of term “6-screw” for leaf spring I frames)
I'm gonna stick tongue firmly in cheek here and suggest that one reason folks who practice certain skilled trades (like armorers, auto mechanics, doctors, lawyers and machinists) may use arcane terminology is so they can both feel superior to those who aren't initiates and figure out who isn't.
Kidding (and brand loyalty term differences) aside, if you're in the fraternity, you know exactly what the other person is talking about.
Kidding (and brand loyalty term differences) aside, if you're in the fraternity, you know exactly what the other person is talking about.
About 40 years ago someone told me that the expression "charge" hole originated when each chamber was loaded (charged) manually with powder and a ball etc. The era when people carried spare cylinders in their pockets, sealed with wax so the powder stayed dry, instead of spare 19-round magazines.
Words like "Chamber", and "Chambered in...", and re-chambered, supposedly came about with metallic cartridges, fixed cylinders, and loading "Gates". A cartridge was pushed out and a new one inserted, through the open "Gate". That terminology carried over to expressions like chambering a round, a gun with a round chambered, etc...
His final comment was something like "We call them chambers on modern guns, unless you want to call them charge holes..."
Old Revolver Guys were opinionated like that... they also made up a lot of stories to tell while reloading... you probably never noticed...
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Hadn’t thought of that.
When it comes to verbing the noun, a revolver being “chambered” in a certain caliber is a fairly often-used expression.
Anyone ever heard of one being “charge-holed” in .44?
.357magger
Member
Hadn’t thought of that.
When it comes to verbing the noun, a revolver being “chambered” in a certain caliber is a fairly often-used expression.
Anyone ever heard of one being “charge-holed” in .44?
I have.
You use a clip.
Facing away from you.
(okay, not really, I just wanted to see if the thread could expand to 3 pages)
DeplorabusUnum
Member
Yep, and when things get used incorrectly enough they become commonplace and are passed on. Then vs than is a classic example. "This is better then that" is commonly used. Some cringe, some don't, but we all know it means "better than". Being a perfectionist is tiring, and generally speaking not worth the trouble.
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Okay, I'll get sucked into the clip/mag debate for one post. I've said this before-
I grew up around WW II vets. It seemed like every adult male, and some of the females, had been in "The War".
To a man, they said "clip" instead of magazine. To them, anything holding ammo that went into a gun was a clip, except for belts.
There was Little Joe, an old family friend, who brought back a PP with holster and extra clip.
There was Bunny, another old family friend, who left both legs below the knee in a glider in Normandy.
There was Mr. Smith on the corner, a Pacific Marine. He had a few gold teeth in a cigar box. We did not ride our bikes near the corner when Mr. Smith was drinking.
A classmate's Dad, Mr. Thompson, who survived the death of his Sherman TWICE.
Shelby, who was a CPO on a Cruiser in the Pacific naval battles.
YOU tell them how wrong they were. I never did.
I grew up around WW II vets. It seemed like every adult male, and some of the females, had been in "The War".
To a man, they said "clip" instead of magazine. To them, anything holding ammo that went into a gun was a clip, except for belts.
There was Little Joe, an old family friend, who brought back a PP with holster and extra clip.
There was Bunny, another old family friend, who left both legs below the knee in a glider in Normandy.
There was Mr. Smith on the corner, a Pacific Marine. He had a few gold teeth in a cigar box. We did not ride our bikes near the corner when Mr. Smith was drinking.
A classmate's Dad, Mr. Thompson, who survived the death of his Sherman TWICE.
Shelby, who was a CPO on a Cruiser in the Pacific naval battles.
YOU tell them how wrong they were. I never did.
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
.....
I grew up around WW II vets.
......
To a man, they said "clip" instead of magazine. To them, anything holding ammo that went into a gun was a clip, except for belts.
.......
YOU tell them how wrong they were. I never did.
I think Lee’s post is a good reminder of an important point we tend to lose sight of:
The large majority of people who use guns aren’t really interested in guns beyond the “tool level”.
I suspect that most of those guys were not invested in any way in the term “clip”, they just adopted what they heard everybody else use when they joined up.
If you had tried argue with them about it, the response would not have been a defense of clip vs. magazine, but at best “Why are you wasting our time with this? Who cares? We know what we mean”.
^^ You make an EXCELLENT point here ^^
So it begs the question...
Doesn’t it then make perfect sense to point it out repeatedly on a serious gun forum where just about everyone burning energy here daily is way more than knee-deep in to this hobby?
So you have the conversation in a casual fashion at a range or a gun store, where the bulk of folks are not hard core, but around these pages?
So it begs the question...
Doesn’t it then make perfect sense to point it out repeatedly on a serious gun forum where just about everyone burning energy here daily is way more than knee-deep in to this hobby?
So you have the conversation in a casual fashion at a range or a gun store, where the bulk of folks are not hard core, but around these pages?
Green Frog
Member
And this, my friend is the crux of the matter. If we are speaking to a general audience of people who have a basic knowledge of the topic, our terminology should be clear to them. If we are discussing the fine points of a topic we will probably be more specific with our terms, and if our audience is all on the same page, so to speak, we can lapse into our favorite jargon.
Green Frog
Smith & Wesson wants to . . .
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Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Well, if we’re returning to the charge holes, I’ve got one more wench ... um, I mean wrench to throw into the spokes, or whatever:
On several packages, the Performance Center promises to chamfer the charge holes. That would mean the charge hole is only the opening of the chamber, (parallel to the breech and muzzle being the openings of the barrel), because you can’t chamfer a space, only an edge. The unequivocal definition of chamfer is to turn a right-angled edge into a sloping edge
On several packages, the Performance Center promises to chamfer the charge holes. That would mean the charge hole is only the opening of the chamber, (parallel to the breech and muzzle being the openings of the barrel), because you can’t chamfer a space, only an edge. The unequivocal definition of chamfer is to turn a right-angled edge into a sloping edge
Duly noted . . .
There’s no way to challenge that without getting a point for bickering . . .
There’s no way to challenge that without getting a point for bickering . . .
Well, if we’re returning to the charge holes, I’ve got one more wench ... um, I mean wrench to throw into the spokes, or whatever:
On several packages, the Performance Center promises to chamfer the charge holes. That would mean the charge hole is only the opening of the chamber, (parallel to the breech and muzzle being the openings of the barrel), because you can’t chamfer a space, only an edge. The unequivocal definition of chamfer is to turn a right-angled edge into a sloping edge
