Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

[kbm6893]

Unless the government mandates it no one will attend.

If you want to buy yourself a load of heartache, flunk or kick out a student from a class that they have paid for. You probably won't do it more that a couple of times.

The government can mandate it. But they don't have to be the ones running the class. And people can complain all they want about failing. Doesn't matter to me.

And you're just proving my point. Unless they have no choice, most shooters will not be formally trained. They rely on YouTube videos and learning from somebody else, who may or may not know what they are doing. They spend thousands on guns, ammo, and gear, but won't spend any money on quality training. Everytime I see some guy with a tricked out AR with a $700 Eotech scope, he barely knows what he is doing.

Unlike others here, I don't read stories like this and say "what are you gonna do?" I look at the victim as a husband, father, brother, and son. And he will be missed by those who knew him. And if the moron wth the loaded gun excercised some caution, he'd still be here today. How many people a year are shot due to negligence?

 

[keith44spl]

It's been my observation that states develop their concealed carry course
to be successfully passed by the large majority of applicants.

Heck fire, folks it's all about the money, it's revenue for the state coffers.
Why would the governing bodies make it so difficult as to exclude by in large the general public.

The state(s) are not in the business of 'really training' folks in handling firearms anymore that training folks to drive safely.
The state just test your knowledge of traffic laws and requires one to drive a simple course and parallel park.

Not everyone wants to be a 'gunfighter', they just don't want to be victims of crimes of violence.
.

 

[kbm6893]

Not saying everybody should spend a weekend at black water. Just be proficient. A friend of mine used to live in Florida. Bought a Springfield XD with no training whatsoever. No class needed for purchase, just carry. Six months later he decided to get a carry permit. Attended some 8 hour class. Passed with flying colors. I visit him nearly 2 years after he got his permit to carry. I ask to check it out. He told me he fired one 50 round box since he bought the gun. It was in his sock drawer. I see there's no mag in the gun. He says he doesn't want his kid to be able to fire the weapon. The mag is on a top shelf in his closet. I rack the slide. Round pops out. So this graduate of some class had no ide the weapon could fire with the magazine out. 2 and a half years owning a gun and passing some class that a rock could pass and he still didn't know how to use it. And he's not alone. Millions more just like him. You should have seen his face when I told him his kid could have blown his brains out in all that time when he thought the gun was safe. He's not some moron. Just somebody who believe the piece of paper in his wallet meant he knew what he was doing.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

And you're just proving my point. Unless they have no choice, most shooters will not be formally trained. They rely on YouTube videos and learning from somebody else, who may or may not know what they are doing. They spend thousands on guns, ammo, and gear, but won't spend any money on quality training. Everytime I see some guy with a tricked out AR with a $700 Eotech scope, he barely knows what he is doing.

How about Aimpoint and Trijicon?

There was a thread on here not long ago about ND's. LOT'S of us here had them.

Could you give us the details about all your ND's? Are your ND's the result of lack of mandatory training or something else?

 

[keith44spl]

Everytime I see some guy with a tricked out AR with a $700 Eotech scope, he barely knows what he is doing.

Yeah, them Eoteck reflex sight are battery eatin sons of a gun.

I use a Meprolight on my trick'd out AR-15, no batteries needed.


.

 

[kbm6893]

How about Aimpoint and Trijicon?



Could you give us the details about all your ND's? Are your ND's the result of lack of mandatory training or something else?

Sure. I had my one and only in 1994. We had just switched over to the 9MM and I was racking the slide and dry firing my Glock 19. Mag was out and behind me and when I got bored with it I put the mag back in and out it down. Little while later I racked again and BANG. Forgot I out the mag back in. I was shocked. I was a gun guy and screwed up big time. Only thing I did right was pointing that weapon in a safe direction. But over 22 years later, everytime I pick up a weapon that scene flashes through my mind. I am actually grateful it happened. Taught me more than a weekend at BlackWater ever could


So yeah, my ND happened despite my training. Imagine what could happen with some tool with none at all? Anybody can have one. Professional shooters have had them. Bill Jordan killed one of his fellow border patrol agents when he had a ND. So while proper training doesn't eliminate the possibilty, it surely lessens it.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Sure. I had one in 1994. We had just switched over to the 9MM and I was racking the slide and dry firing my Glock 19. Mag was out and behind me and when I got bored with it I put the mag back in and out it down. Little while later I racked again and BANG. Forgot I out the mag back in. I was shocked. I was a gun guy and screwed up big time. Only thing I did right was pointing that weapon in a safe direction. But over 22 years later, everytime I pick up a weapon that scene flashes through my mind. I am actually grateful it happened. Taught me more than a weekend at BlackWater ever could


So yeah, my ND happened despite my training. Imagine what could happen with some tool with none at all? Anybody can have one. Professional shooters have had them. Bill Jordan killed one of his fellow border patrol agents when he had a ND. So while proper training doesn't eliminate the possibilty, it surely lessens it.

Yup, that thread of unintentional discharges was a list of brain farts and general knew-better-but-didn't lack of discipline episodes much like you're describing. And that's what I've been saying all along that it's generally not a lack of training or skills.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Not saying everybody should spend a weekend at black water. Just be proficient. A friend of mine used to live in Florida. Bought a Springfield XD with no training whatsoever. No class needed for purchase, just carry. Six months later he decided to get a carry permit. Attended some 8 hour class. Passed with flying colors. I visit him nearly 2 years after he got his permit to carry. I ask to check it out. He told me he fired one 50 round box since he bought the gun. It was in his sock drawer. I see there's no mag in the gun. He says he doesn't want his kid to be able to fire the weapon. The mag is on a top shelf in his closet. I rack the slide. Round pops out. So this graduate of some class had no ide the weapon could fire with the magazine out. 2 and a half years owning a gun and passing some class that a rock could pass and he still didn't know how to use it. And he's not alone. Millions more just like him. You should have seen his face when I told him his kid could have blown his brains out in all that time when he thought the gun was safe. He's not some moron. Just somebody who believe the piece of paper in his wallet meant he knew what he was doing.

Worth repeating. I think that this post rates an answer. Just not sure I'm up to it this late at night.

 

[Wise_A]

I hate to break it to you, but if somebody doesn't read the instruction manual that came with their gun, and doesn't understand its manual of arms, then no class or training is going to help them.

Trust me. I just spent all afternoon tearing my hair out in the blazing sun, repeating my mantra...

"Thumb...finger off the trigger...safety's on...thumb...thumb..."

 

[Muss Muggins]

I don't understand what "thumb" means . . .

(in this context)

 

[Rastoff]

Just be proficient.

And who decides what "proficient" is?

That's the problem with regulating a right. A right is granted because you're alive and for no other reason. It has nothing to do with proficiency or ability; it just is.

The second amendment says, "...the RIGHT to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It's quite plain, but gets trampled on by every state that enacts a gun law and we let them.

Look, I hear what your saying. There are plenty out there that are scary when you watch them handle a gun. I see it in every class and every time I go to the range. But, and this is a big one, very few actually injure anyone. When you compare the number of guns and the volume of ammo available, there should be more accidents with guns, but it doesn't happen. Why? Because the vast majority have a clue. No, they're not "operators", but know enough to send the bullets in the proper direction at the proper time.


To date, I have a 100% pass rate in my CCW class. I've seen some really good shooting and some really poor shooting. In every class I have to correct some improper handling. I see fingers on triggers and lack of muzzle awareness all the time. Should I fail them because they can't shoot well? Or is it more beneficial to the community at large to get more licenses out there?

There are three ways to fail my class:

• Cop an attitude in the class and generally be disruptive.
• Demonstrate extremely poor gun handling at the range.
• Miss more than 5 questions on the written 25 question test (which anyone here could pass without having gone through the class).

To date, every shooter I've trained has been respectful, attentive and handled their gun within the parameters given. Should I remove their right to carry because they missed the target with a new gun? Or is it my fault and I haven't trained them well enough yet?

 

[crazyphil]

"..the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is great and I
hope we can keep that right. But what about "well regulated"? It was
intended that some regulation would be necessary. For instance, crazy
people should not be allowed to own a gun. (Maybe I better change my
name.)

 

[Muss Muggins]

"..the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is great and I
hope we can keep that right. But what about "well regulated"? It was
intended that some regulation would be necessary. For instance, crazy
people should not be allowed to own a gun. (Maybe I better change my
name.)

Along the lines of what Rastoff asked above - Who decides what crazy is?

 

[patjmc]

To Crazyphil, the term "well regulated" in the 2A meant that all the men would be "regular" as in uniform or all the same with respect to the firearms they had if they were called up. The militia was all able bodied men up to about the age of 35 or so that were expected to own up to date for the period weapons that could be used in defense of the homeland if need be. The militia is everyone and "regulated" meant a good rifle a pound of powder and four pounds of shot.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Not saying everybody should spend a weekend at black water. Just be proficient. A friend of mine used to live in Florida. Bought a Springfield XD with no training whatsoever. No class needed for purchase, just carry. Six months later he decided to get a carry permit. Attended some 8 hour class. Passed with flying colors. I visit him nearly 2 years after he got his permit to carry. I ask to check it out. He told me he fired one 50 round box since he bought the gun. It was in his sock drawer. I see there's no mag in the gun. He says he doesn't want his kid to be able to fire the weapon. The mag is on a top shelf in his closet. I rack the slide. Round pops out. So this graduate of some class had no ide the weapon could fire with the magazine out. 2 and a half years owning a gun and passing some class that a rock could pass and he still didn't know how to use it. And he's not alone. Millions more just like him. You should have seen his face when I told him his kid could have blown his brains out in all that time when he thought the gun was safe. He's not some moron. Just somebody who believe the piece of paper in his wallet meant he knew what he was doing.

You raise a good point here. What do you propose we do about it?

 

[kbm6893]

You raise a good point here. What do you propose we do about it?

Training should be mandatory, and it should be thourough. If the government was so serious about reducing these incidents, they could either hold them for free using soldiers or cops to teach them, or offer some tax incentive or something. I know I'm gonna hear the "what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand?" Comments , but I don't care. When people screw up with guns, innocent people die or get hurt. I also think when these "accidents" happen, that charges should be filed. Make people think twice.

All I know is I see a LOT of incompetent people out there with guns. And some steps need to be taken to lessen those people.

 

[MichiganScott]

Training should be mandatory, and it should be thourough. If the government was so serious about reducing these incidents, they could either hold them for free using soldiers or cops to teach them, or offer some tax incentive or something. I know I'm gonna hear the "what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand?" Comments , but I don't care. When people screw up with guns, innocent people die or get hurt. I also think when these "accidents" happen, that charges should be filed. Make people think twice.

All I know is I see a LOT of incompetent people out there with guns. And some steps need to be taken to lessen those people.

Hate to say it KBM6893, but you have an elitist attitude, common in your profession. You seem to think that you should be the one allowed to determine who is competent or not.

We used to allow the local PD the use of our club's range for their bi-annual qualification. We went so far as to give them free memberships.

They were insistent that there be no observers during qualifications. Our rangemaster insisted he be allowed to observe because they were operating under the club's insurance policy. Not only did they destroy the range and refuse to repair it in accordance to the agreement, the incompetence was so blatant their privileges were revoked. They no longer get free memberships.

The local chief is running for sheriff against the current under-sheriff. The current sheriff is very pro-gun and facilitates the populace getting their CFL. I'll bet you can't guess which candidate is anti gun and believes the peasants shouldn't be allowed access to pitchforks.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Training should be mandatory, and it should be thourough. If the government was so serious about reducing these incidents, they could either hold them for free using soldiers or cops to teach them, or offer some tax incentive or something. I know I'm gonna hear the "what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand?" Comments , but I don't care. When people screw up with guns, innocent people die or get hurt. I also think when these "accidents" happen, that charges should be filed. Make people think twice.

All I know is I see a LOT of incompetent people out there with guns. And some steps need to be taken to lessen those people.

Going a little bit different way . . . What other constitutional right should require training? Literacy tests were declared illegal for voting many years ago, and voting is arguably a more dangerous right . . .

As far as your "All I know is I see a LOT of incompetent people out there with guns." comment, you are on record as stating that mere appearance dictates competency. I haven't seen you. Do you fit my idea of someone who is incompetent? . . .

 

[kbm6893]

Hate to say it KBM6893, but you have an elitist attitude, common in your profession. You seem to think that you should be the one allowed to determine who is competent or not.

We used to allow the local PD the use of our club's range for their bi-annual qualification. We went so far as to give them free memberships.

They were insistent that there be no observers during qualifications. Our rangemaster insisted he be allowed to observe because they were operating under the club's insurance policy. Not only did they destroy the range and refuse to repair it in accordance to the agreement, the incompetence was so blatant their privileges were revoked. They no longer get free memberships.

The local chief is running for sheriff against the current under-sheriff. The current sheriff is very pro-gun and facilitates the populace getting their CFL. I'll bet you can't guess which candidate is anti gun and believes the peasants shouldn't be allowed access to pitchforks.

First of all, I'm retired, so my former profession has nothing to do with it. And my attitude is not elitist. I just don't want people to needlessly get shot or killed because somebody who chose to excercise their right to bear arms didn't accept the responsibility to do so safely. Look how many posters here have witnessed atrocious gun handling by others. It's an epidemic. Just because most of the time nobody gets hurt doesn't make it any better.

And I think any sane, law abiding citizen should be able to own or carry a gun if they want to. I live in PA now, and a 21 year old can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. I think that is a serious lapse of good judgement. If that makes me an elitist in your book, then you and I have very different books.

 

[Rastoff]

Training should be mandatory,...

Wait, this happened during a mandatory training class and your solution, to stop accidents like this, is to have more mandatory training? Are you serious?

If you lived in CA you might feel differently. Californians have given control of guns over to the state. They wanted to keep us safe so they forced us to:

• Wait 10 days to buy a handgun.
• Then they extended the wait to all guns.
• Then they limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds.
• Then the banned assault rifles (even though there is no such thing).
• Then they required registering handguns bought from out of state.
• They they required registering handguns bought in state.
• Then they required registering all guns.
• Then they required new guns to include a non-existent technology called micro stamping. This means we will never be able to buy any newly designed gun and many of the older designs are becoming extinct.

This list is just a taste of what we have to deal with. There's much, much more.

Current legislation awaiting the governor's signature will require us to register to buy ammo. We have to literally beg the county sheriff if we want to legally carry a concealed gun. If he approves, we then have to pay more to take training mandated by law.

This is just a small list of what we have to put up with. It's beyond ridiculous. Now you want to require everyone to take state mandated training just to have a gun? Yeah, what a great idea. Give control of our rights over to the government because they've done such a good job with the DMV.

This is a really bad idea.